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#1
11-13-2007, 07:20 PM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
capitalism means a structure of private property. Socialism means a structure of social property. If society is anarchistic it must be capitalistic. [/ QUOTE ] But again, in the absence of a universal rule of law, how do you control what individuals will do? What is to stop a large group of people in an AC society taking control of an area and defining the property as communal? It seems that by definition, as soon as something goes wrong in AC society, it is no longer an AC society. [ QUOTE ] that is the only way to provide individual freedom and therefore a diversity of ideas lacking a coercive over-arching structure. Within that society there can be corperations and kibbutz's which live side by side. Even a kibbutz is capitalistic so far as they keep the land to themselves treat the property as social amongst themselves and dont interfere with the lives of others including the rights of members to defect. [/ QUOTE ] You're describing the current United States and the countries of the world. [ QUOTE ] What do you define a state as? If they violate the property rights of others to enforce their structure then what makes them different from stalin? How can they be called anarchists? [/ QUOTE ] A modern state is fundamentally a universal rule of law within defined geographical borders, with those laws backed by organized force. As for AS, I agree that it seems a rather strange notion, since it's defined by people accepting the land claims of the group and disavowing personal land claims. But it's not that much stranger than AC, that stipulates that people must respect the property claims of others. Again, if you dismantle the government, free agents making choices (some of them incompatible with either philosophy) will determine what happens or doesn't, which makes AC and AS really just A. 
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#2
11-13-2007, 12:36 AM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
There is no such thing as anarcho-capitalism either. Do YOU see why? The very concept of anarchy means that free actors can do as they wish, and this includes free trade, mob rule, and buying up/stealing all available land to make socialist communes Let's call it what it is: Anarchy. You support anarchy, period. The "capitalism" addition is just a bit of fluff to dress up a thoroughly debunked and laughed at notion with credible words. gg. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
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#3
11-13-2007, 12:43 AM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] There is no such thing as anarcho-capitalism either. Do YOU see why? The very concept of anarchy means that free actors can do as they wish, and this includes free trade, mob rule, and buying up/stealing all available land to make socialist communes Let's call it what it is: Anarchy. You support anarchy, period. The "capitalism" addition is just a bit of fluff to dress up a thoroughly debunked and laughed at notion with credible words. gg. [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] can one of you respond to my response to phil?
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#4
11-12-2007, 11:27 PM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
WOW. I'm not an ACist and even I have read literature on it that disputes your claim-from those proposing it. If you reappear from round your computer and star trek collection and pander about the real world and implications of what you are saying you will realise the absurdity of stating ACism would be free of force.
And yes anarcho-socialism would not by some magic eliminate all aspects of authority. It would dismantle forms of dominion and tyranny though which ACism would not and does'nt wish to. Anyway, whats the point in your OP; you just want to hear people congratulate and pat you on your back for conforming to their awesome ACist philosophy and to reinforce your flawed perspective on life? There are about 2 posters here who allign themselves loosely with anarcho-socialism; so Im confused as to what you are trying to achieve.
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#5
11-12-2007, 11:43 PM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
WOW. I'm not an ACist and even I have read literature on it that disputes your claim-from those proposing it. If you reappear from round your computer and star trek collection and pander about the real world and implications of what you are saying you will realise the absurdity of stating ACism would be free of force. [/ QUOTE ] Is there an argument somehwere in this ad hominem? [ QUOTE ] It would dismantle forms of dominion and tyranny though which ACism would not and does'nt wish to. [/ QUOTE ] It would do this through persuasion or tyranny? [ QUOTE ] Anyway, whats the point in your OP; you just want to hear people congratulate and pat you on your back for conforming to their awesome ACist philosophy and to reinforce your flawed perspective on life? There are about 2 posters here who allign themselves loosely with anarcho-socialism; so Im confused as to what you are trying to achieve [/ QUOTE ] i posted to have the precise discussion im having with you. Why did you answer to this post? To pander to yourself and your one anarcho-socialist buddy?
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#6
11-12-2007, 11:29 PM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
"Anarcho-socialism", as a macro structure for society, can only be protected through force and therefore proponents are statists by practical necessity. [/ QUOTE ] I do not believe this to be true. There have been literally hundreds, if not thousands, of anarcho-socialist societies throughout human history.
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#7
11-12-2007, 11:33 PM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] "Anarcho-socialism", as a macro structure for society, can only be protected through force and therefore proponents are statists by practical necessity. [/ QUOTE ] I do not believe this to be true. There have been literally hundreds, if not thousands, of anarcho-socialist societies throughout human history. [/ QUOTE ] such as....? what happened to those in those societies who tried to control the fruits of their labor?
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#8
11-13-2007, 12:20 AM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] "Anarcho-socialism", as a macro structure for society, can only be protected through force and therefore proponents are statists by practical necessity. [/ QUOTE ] I do not believe this to be true. There have been literally hundreds, if not thousands, of anarcho-socialist societies throughout human history. [/ QUOTE ] such as....? what happened to those in those societies who tried to control the fruits of their labor? [/ QUOTE ] Any number of ancient stateless tribes were essentially anarcho-socialist, i.e. there was no state, there was private property in personal goods, but collective ownership of most of the means of production, such as the land itself.
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#9
11-13-2007, 12:25 AM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] "Anarcho-socialism", as a macro structure for society, can only be protected through force and therefore proponents are statists by practical necessity. [/ QUOTE ] I do not believe this to be true. There have been literally hundreds, if not thousands, of anarcho-socialist societies throughout human history. [/ QUOTE ] such as....? what happened to those in those societies who tried to control the fruits of their labor? [/ QUOTE ] Any number of ancient stateless tribes were essentially anarcho-socialist, i.e. there was no state, there was private property in personal goods, but collective ownership of most of the means of production, such as the land itself. [/ QUOTE ] Boro, im not sure what ancient tribes you are referring to but the only ones I know of relied on an extremely heirarchial society.
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#10
11-13-2007, 12:35 AM
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Re: Anarchists must be Anarcho-capitalists
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] "Anarcho-socialism", as a macro structure for society, can only be protected through force and therefore proponents are statists by practical necessity. [/ QUOTE ] I do not believe this to be true. There have been literally hundreds, if not thousands, of anarcho-socialist societies throughout human history. [/ QUOTE ] such as....? what happened to those in those societies who tried to control the fruits of their labor? [/ QUOTE ] Any number of ancient stateless tribes were essentially anarcho-socialist, i.e. there was no state, there was private property in personal goods, but collective ownership of most of the means of production, such as the land itself. [/ QUOTE ] Boro, im not sure what ancient tribes you are referring to but the only ones I know of relied on an extremely heirarchial society. [/ QUOTE ] Such as? Most primitive societies I know of weren't particularly "hierarchical" at all, although many revered tribal elders (not an unwise policy imo). That reverence was typically entirely voluntary and subject to transfer should a particular elder prove himself unworthy of respect.
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Hybrid Mode
