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#1
10-13-2007, 11:01 AM
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Re: flop check
Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown? Or can we assume that "often gets out of line" doesn't extend to him 3-betting the turn with air?
If so and I check the flop (which I like), I'm raising the turn for a free showdown. If he's bluffing and folds, we lose 1BB of value, but we gain most of that back since a lot of his bluffing hands can beat us "by accident" on the river. Plus at lower limits (at B&M at least) this line looks strong enough to sometimes induce a laydown from limping hands like Q8s-98s that have us beat. We've got position, might as well take advantage of it. Mook 
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#2
10-14-2007, 03:14 AM
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Re: flop check
[ QUOTE ]
Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown? [/ QUOTE ] Of course (I cant think of a river card I would fold, but there might be one). Think of this as manipulating the expected value. In the long run your going to extract more bets out of his bluffs than you will out of him by sucking out. You are forfeiting the ability to protect your hand for the profit you will make when he bets with air.
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#3
10-14-2007, 09:59 AM
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Re: flop check
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown? [/ QUOTE ] Of course (I cant think of a river card I would fold, but there might be one). Think of this as manipulating the expected value. In the long run your going to extract more bets out of his bluffs than you will out of him by sucking out. You are forfeiting the ability to protect your hand for the profit you will make when he bets with air. [/ QUOTE ] flop bet isn't just to protect our hand. it is also for value. This is a drawy board, and worse hands will call us.
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#4
10-14-2007, 04:18 PM
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Re: flop check
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown? [/ QUOTE ] Of course (I cant think of a river card I would fold, but there might be one). Think of this as manipulating the expected value. In the long run your going to extract more bets out of his bluffs than you will out of him by sucking out. You are forfeiting the ability to protect your hand for the profit you will make when he bets with air. [/ QUOTE ] flop bet isn't just to protect our hand. it is also for value. This is a drawy board, and worse hands will call us. [/ QUOTE ] a "drawy" board? i guess it does have the connected 7 and 8 but mainly it's a king high rainbow and that's it. in actuality, based on the strength i've shown and that board it makes it a tough spot for alot of worse hands to call. he can't draw to something like a 6out overcard hand. usually if he only calls the flop bet he has something like a gutshot which he folds after we get 1.5 bb in unless we're beat(half a big bet worse than checking the flop and calling down). if he holds an ace he's drawing to 3 outs assuming he has an overcard to my 7. he may have a pp giving him a 2 outer(he would 3bet any pp over my 7s). given this guy and his tendencies if i check the flop he will fire the turn and river with that same gutshot, pp or complete air. in effect our money goes in as a bigger fave than simply betting the flop. we gain value from alot of his other holdings that won't peel in addition to those that would peel. not to mention we lose less when behind this way. i would still like to know, what is your line on the turn and river if you bet the flop? what are you doing if raised on any street?
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#7
10-15-2007, 09:56 AM
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Re: flop check
James:
I like this. But how far do would you take it? holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone? -rico
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#8
10-15-2007, 10:16 AM
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Re: flop check
[ QUOTE ]
James: I like this. But how far do would you take it? holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone? -rico [/ QUOTE ] rico, are we talking about the same opponent as in this hand? this as much a function of your opponent as the cards in your hand and on the board(IMO).
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#9
10-15-2007, 10:23 AM
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Re: flop check
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] James: I like this. But how far do would you take it? holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone? -rico [/ QUOTE ] rico, are we talking about the same opponent as in this hand? [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Same laggy postflop opponent. I agree that this is as much opponent driven as card driven. --Rico
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#10
10-15-2007, 04:54 PM
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Re: flop check
i'm rushing so i'm not super-sold on these but at a first glance here:
“But how far do would you take it?” It’s not often that I do anything all of the time when I play poker. That said there is probably some frequency I could arbitrarily assign based on my usual playing style. If I feel like a free card is something that benefits me, I prefer to take it on the turn since it’s the more expensive street. If I think the free card is something that I will give to my opponent(to let them catch up or induce action later) I give it on the flop ‘cause it’s a small street. I’ve also ignored whether the Ahigh hands are suited/unsuited and if I have any sort of backdoor frush draws. assuming he only calls pf: holding AK on a Q86r: usually check AK on a Q86 2-tone: usually check holding AT on a J57r: usually check AT on a J57 2-tone: usually bet holding 44 on a K73r: usually check 44 on a K73 2 tone: usually check holding 22 on a Q56r: meh. Both but bet more often. 22 on a Q56 2-tone: meh. Both pretty evenly. With weak hands against a very aggressive opponent, underplaying hands(even 22 or Ahigh) can lead to a profitable call down due to the high bluffing frequency. Certain boards can increase this bluffing frequency and as such should result in even more liberal calldowns. Larger pots can increase the profitability of a call down as well, since you are getting a better price that an aggressive villain is bluffing. Of course, as always the above are subject to the “it depends”rule. In other words, if I’ve been checking a lot of flops I need to balance, if I’ve been betting a lot of flops I need to balance, etc.
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