Where a good player 3bets me and I have NO [censored] idea about what to

[Fiksdal]

Bozzer

Maybe it's sometimes correct to fold even though you are slightly ahead of villains range? Because the risk reward ratio of re-raising is just too bad?

[jonyy6788]

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I can't fold here though - you are ahead of his range.

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this is not the problem. also, villain=unknown 3 bettor, so you can't tell me we're ahead of his range

the main problem here is......POSITION and we don't have it

[shutupladge]

seems fine, I sometimes would 4bet pre but i think your line is fine.

[bozzer]

nah if you 4bet shove and you are ahead of his range you are in (high variance) hog heaven.

for example (assuming full stacks):

against { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ } (5.7% of hands) you are a 51% favourite.

if he only calls with {AK,KK+} (2.1% hands) (a tight range IME!) you are a 37% dog.

<called> = .37($50) - 24 = -$5.5

<notcalled> = +$4.5

so you can see we don't need much FE for this to work.

<shove> = (2.1/5.7)(-$5.5) + (1 - 2.1/5.7)(+$4.5) = +$0.88 FTW!

if he calls you with a wider range you get less FE but start flipping vs his range so it's all good in a very high variance way.

I really recommend playing around with these calculations - finding the breakeven range for a 4bet shove with various hands etc. I can't say I've worked this all out yet, but it really helps to think things through (and at least get familiar with your AI equities pf).

[Fiksdal]

Thanks for the math stuff Bozzer! Really. I've been looking for something like that for a while.

[jonyy6788]

so we're gonna win 88 cents on avg. if he's 3-betting said hands and only calls with AK, KK+?

a) we still have no clue of his range
b) he's calling AI with QQ, maybe even JJ
c) variance is ghey, try reducing it as much as possible at NL25. the whole goal of the uNL is to learn the game and move up at the same time. high variance and very very marginal plays like these are not necessary at NL25

[bozzer]

jonyy,

a) the 3b range i gave is just speculative. the key to playing well against 3bets is to understand their range. I think it's fair to assume that this villain can 3bet with a reasonable range depending on circumstances. Whether he 3bets a UTG raise with the range I gave is very questionable.

Anyway, my post was aiming to show why 4bet shoving can work even though the risk is high and the reward low, and to get people aware of the maths needed to work this stuff out for themselves (and share findings pls!).

b) yeah if he calls a 4bet shove with {QQ+,AK} we breakeven with AK against the 3 bet range I gave. (but we profit with KK+!)

c) in my experience learning to play against 3bets is essential at $50nl, so why not start learning now?

[Supwithbates]

i suck at playing vs. 3bets and I'm still beating 50nl pretty comfortably so it's not all that essential.

[C4LL4W4Y]

It's a good skill to have at 25-50, and almost essential at 100.

[Fiksdal]

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i suck at playing vs. 3bets and I'm still beating 50nl pretty comfortably so it's not all that essential.

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So you are saying you wouldn't like your winrate to increase even further?