Adjusting HOH to shorter tournaments

[smbruin22]

i am curious about same subject......

i think a 3-hour start to finish tournament is too fast for even arnold's book/strategy.... i think his minimum length tourney where luck doesn't equal 100% would be about 7 hours to the finish. field significantly reduced at 3 hours of course.

FWIW, and alot might be luck (both ways), but i think i did my best with HOH approach modified. ... AND a few times where you close your eyes and go all-in because too much of your stack is already in, even though you only have moderately strong hand....

EDIT: as per actual advice, gap concept is still vital and position still matters alot, but your hand requirements go moderately down.... one thing i'm unclear on is how much to worry about going all-in A6o for example when likely called by only better ace or pocket pair. not sure if i should have KT+, for example, in opponent's call range.... obviously if you think your opponent only calls with A-better and pocket pairs, then almost any hand is better than your dominated (or semi-dominated)A6o

[BigAlK]

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i am curious about same subject......

i think a 3-hour start to finish tournament is too fast for even arnold's book/strategy.... i think his minimum length tourney where luck doesn't equal 100% would be about 7 hours to the finish. field significantly reduced at 3 hours of course.

FWIW, and alot might be luck (both ways), but i think i did my best with HOH approach modified. ... AND a few times where you close your eyes and go all-in because too much of your stack is already in, even though you only have moderately strong hand....

EDIT: as per actual advice, gap concept is still vital and position still matters alot, but your hand requirements go moderately down.... one thing i'm unclear on is how much to worry about going all-in A6o for example when likely called by only better ace or pocket pair. not sure if i should have KT+, for example, in opponent's call range.... obviously if you think your opponent only calls with A-better and pocket pairs, then almost any hand is better than your dominated (or semi-dominated)A6o

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SMBruin22,

Your response sounds like it is addressing specific comments in a post, but I couldn't find or remember anything in this thread that they would be addressing. I still have some comments though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The length of the tournament is impacted by field size as well as the blind structure. Online vs live also makes a difference. I haven't computed the patience factor, but believe something like the 45 or 90 man sit-and-go's on Full Tilt, for example, probably fall within the parameters of what the PTF is intended for and generally run somewhere in the 2-4 hour range.

My personal strategy is something that could be called "modified Harrington" too. A large percentage of those modifications are from or were inspired by Snyder.

[smbruin22]

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Your response sounds like it is addressing specific comments in a post, but I couldn't find or remember anything in this thread that they would be addressing. I still have some comments though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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thanks for your response.... OP said 3 hour total time for the tourney. you are correct that a smaller tournament might be o.k. for that time. i tend to think of larger entrant tourneys where you really need to build your stack. and in 3 hour tourney, you'd have to build in first 90 minutes.

i think arnold has sort of 7-8 hour B&M tourney as his minimum standard.... but quite unclear on # of players. i know he does have a formula but it doesn't really get you where you want to be. harrington is unclear too, but i assume he chooses large, long tourney as his base so the variability isn't as great.

later on my comment, i just went free-form on some thoughts.

basically arnold is not that much different from what i think fast-HOH would be if dan wrote that type of book.

[fraac]

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as per actual advice, gap concept is still vital and position still matters alot

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Position is everything, gap concept only applies at high blinds (at low blinds there is inverse gap concept).

[stevematador]

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HOH and other books are written with the WSOP and WPT style tournaments in mind. Those with large starting chip counts and long time frames. I play mostly tournaments designed to last no longer than three hours. Starting chip counts are already in the orange zone.

Are there any books that talk about how to modify early play to adjust for this?

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HOH has a ton of examples and scenarios from online tourneys, which can easily be used for faster tournaments. I have the Arnold Snyder book and although it refers to fast tourneys, I still think HOH material can easily be adjusted for faster tourneys better than using Snyder's concepts. I just speed up the zones from HOH in faster tourneys, for example I may start pushing as soon as I enter the orange zone, or even lower yellow zone, rather than waiting until I reach the red zone. In other words I may start push/fold with an M of 11 or 12 in a fast tourney where as in a slower tourney I would still be looking to raise and try and outplay my opponents on the flop etc.

[smbruin22]

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Position is everything, gap concept only applies at high blinds (at low blinds there is inverse gap concept).

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does the gap really reverse? i.e. inverse gap.... i'm thinking the overlay gets significant, but that's not the same as a reversed gap........... but maybe it's all terminology.

and not sure it completely relates to your comments, but i'd also add the dynamics of short stack MTT can be completely different that SNG. can still have a few full tables and lots of players with low M's