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#11
09-07-2006, 09:37 PM
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Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
i certainly respect the opinion of the person who has actually seen the book...
but google navarro and it seems like he has some excellent stuff out there with a somewhat different focus than caro... the other thing i'd add is why not read what navarro and others have written that is not specific to poker... seems like there's entire books on non-verbal textbooks... a great advantage is reading what others aren't. i think everyone knows "weak can mean strong, and vice-versa". having said that, i think reverse-tell type behaviour helps you get paid off. 
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#12
09-07-2006, 09:59 PM
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Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
Dear Ben,
I am not trying to plug a book, only defend the content. I could care less whether you purchase it or not, nevertheless I feel I have an obligation to challenge statements made by other individuals...or is this considered inapproprite by a "newbie" on the site? As to your statements: I am sorry, but I think ten WSOP braclets DOES qualify a poker player of that stature to make a judgment about a book....ON POKER! How do you think books are reviewed in places like the NYTimes? By people respected in the field who know the subject. I'm not saying that TT hasn't a right to make an assessment of the book; however, I also think it appropriate to point out that NUMEROUS poker professionals (I would dare say as "Known and respected" as Mr. TT) have testified to the value of the work. You're right on one issue: "not having a braclet does not disqualify anyone from doing a review." I guess it comes down to who you want to believe...and, in my book, I tend to listen to PROVEN, WINNING poker players when evaluating the value of a poker book. You also say: "At the risk of speaking for others, the people you mention are respected for their poker ability, but are generally held in low esteem for their writing, teaching, and analytical abilities." You have GOT to be kidding! Have you SAT across from these guys? Have you ACTUALLY PLAYED against these guys? I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem. As far as their being held in "low esteem" for their writing, I guess I'll go with Phil on this one: a New York Times bestseller speaks for itself. I also wish you'd refrain from burdening me with statements I did not make. You state: "It is also ill-advised to come onto a forum and dismiss a known and respected member as being unqualified to express an opinion." That's rubbish. Find that quote in my statement and I'll pay you $1,000. "Taking exception to TT's remarks" is NOT saying he is unqualified to express an opinion. If you are as careless at the poker table as you are in your assessments of what other people say, well, I guess I'd enjoy playing across from you. Finally, you say I need to establish some credibility before anyone will take me seriously. It's not my credibility that is at stake here. I am the WRITER of the book, Joe is the man with the ideas...and I think his 25 year career of effectively using "tells" with the FBI and his success with poker players worldwide shouts "credibility!" loud and clear.
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#13
09-07-2006, 10:57 PM
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Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
[ QUOTE ]
You also say: "At the risk of speaking for others, the people you mention are respected for their poker ability, but are generally held in low esteem for their writing, teaching, and analytical abilities." You have GOT to be kidding! Have you SAT across from these guys? Have you ACTUALLY PLAYED against these guys? I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem. As far as their being held in "low esteem" for their writing, I guess I'll go with Phil on this one: a New York Times bestseller speaks for itself. [/ QUOTE ] I think I'll address this because you obviously know very little about poker publishing. When the first WPT shows were broadcast, they created a sensation, and they also featured Phil Hellmuth whose book had just happened to come out. At that time, a great boom in poker book sales began, and there was simply a shortage of all poker books. So good and bad books began to sell, and sell a lot. If Hellmuth's book was released today, it would just be another of the avalanche of poker books that are coming to market, and it would have essentially no sales. As for NY Times best seller list, that doesn't mean the book is any good. But given the current level of competition, and the instant communication that the Internet provides to poker players, books better be good if they want to have sales success. Furthermore, I do know that our books, because of their quality, now dominate the sales of all poker books. As an example, we have had nine different books go into the Amazon.com top 100, so I know what I'm talking about. As for your "have you SAT across from these guys?" remark, who cares. Have you read their books? Do you really understand what's in them? Do you think they are putting out good advice? Do you think they are well written? [ QUOTE ] I also wish you'd refrain from burdening me with statements I did not make. You state: "It is also ill-advised to come onto a forum and dismiss a known and respected member as being unqualified to express an opinion." That's rubbish. Find that quote in my statement and I'll pay you $1,000. [/ QUOTE ] While you didn't state that in exact words, you certainly implied it. You will be welcome here if you want to debate the merits of your book, both positive and negative, in an objective and professional way. You're not off to a good start. [ QUOTE ] Finally, you say I need to establish some credibility before anyone will take me seriously. It's not my credibility that is at stake here. I am the WRITER of the book, Joe is the man with the ideas...and I think his 25 year career of effectively using "tells" with the FBI and his success with poker players worldwide shouts "credibility!" loud and clear. [/ QUOTE ] But it is your credibility since you're the one posting. If Joe was to come on here and was more professional than you have been, I'm sure he would be treated differently. These forums (and this website) is now the premier driver of poker book sales. Nothing else is even close. If you can do a good job of defending this book (which by the way I haven't read) it can add significantly to your sales. If on the other hand you come across as someone who needs a little asprin and a cooling down period, word will quickly spread through all poker players and you will have succeeded in damaging book sales. MM
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#15
09-08-2006, 12:21 AM
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Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
Dear Mason,
Hey, I don't know benfranklin or his reputation so I could accept his aspersions with a large grain of salt. You, on the other hand, I do know as an accomplished writer and player...so now I expect a higher standard when it comes to accuracy and truth in your commentary. Thus, I feel an obligation to point out the following: (1)Your claim that I "..obviously know very little about poker publishing..." My friend, I assure you, I know a great deal about publishing in general (20 published books with major NY houses) and poker publishing specifically (4 poker books published, three by major NY houses). I also have authored over 200 articles, was a columnist and contributing editor for Gambling Times for a decade, am the Associate Editor of the Journal of Gambling Studies and a contributor to popular magazines and newspapers worldwide. Yes, Mason, you are not the only person that publishes on this site. And I also understand the relationship between Phil's book and the WPT, having written the autobiography of Lyle Berman the guy who bankrolled the WPT. There were many books that just "happened to come out" at that time: Phil's book made it because: (1) it was well written; (2) it was published by a major house (HarperCollins) and (3) it was authored by a person who had a proven track record AT THE TABLES. Any of your books hit #1 lately? (2) My comment about sitting across from these guys was in relation to the statement challenging their analytical skills, not their writing ability. Read my quote again before you use it incorrectly, please. (3) Regarding my $1,000 challenge. You say: "While you didn't state that in exact words, you certainly implied it." I don't agree with this at all. I challenged his assumptions I DID NOT in any way indicate he was unqualified to state his opinions. (4) Your comment: "You will be welcome here if you want to debate the merits of your book, both positive and negative, in an objective and professional way. You're not off to a good start." I"m sorry, but I think your Grand Poohbah "nickname" says it all; you might own the site and think you're the cat's meow but I assure you, when it comes to professionalism, you could do well to look in a mirror before you begin reflecting on other people's qualities. (4) You state: "These forums (and this website) is now the premier driver of poker book sales. Nothing else is even close." Documentation, please? Geez, can we have a little less ego here? I'm sure reviewers in major poker magazines and other media outlets might be a bit, well, shaken by their lack of influence when facing your dominating position in the market. By the way, speaking of poker magazines, you might want to read the review of our book in the September issue of Cardplayer. Then take two aspirins and write me in the morning. LOL!
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#18
09-08-2006, 12:44 AM
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Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
[ QUOTE ]
As to your statements: I am sorry, but I think ten WSOP braclets DOES qualify a poker player of that stature to make a judgment about a book....ON POKER! [/ QUOTE ] You didn't say that they had made a judgement about a book. You said that they had paid attention to a presentation. You did not state the subject of that lecture (poker? FBI interregation techniques? what?). [ QUOTE ] I'm not saying that TT hasn't a right to make an assessment of the book [/ QUOTE ] You did not say that in so many words. But you took "exception to "TT's" remarks" and strongly implied that he was unqualified due to a jewelery deficiency. [ QUOTE ] Have you SAT across from these guys? Have you ACTUALLY PLAYED against these guys? I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem. [/ QUOTE ] I clearly stated that their playing ability is top notch. But all of these players have reputations of being ineffectual when it comes conveying an analysis of the game to others. We have seen their written analysis of poker and found it wanting. This lends no confidence to their opinions in other areas, including book reviews. [ QUOTE ] As far as their being held in "low esteem" for their writing, I guess I'll go with Phil on this one: a New York Times bestseller speaks for itself. [/ QUOTE ] Phil can't even spell "poker". Phil sells books on image and marketing, not content. The NYT bestsellers are there because of hype and marketing, not because of content. Some have content, some don't, but that is not why they are best-sellers. Some of Phil's content has been shown to be detrimental to students of the game. I just looked at the NYT list. Authors include Nora Roberts, Fannie Flagg, Robin Cook, Ann Coulter, and Al Gore. Nobody there I want advice from. P.S. I have heard good things about Joe, and read a couple of his articles, which I found informative. I trust I can give the book an objective evaluation when it comes out, this thread not withstanding.
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#19
09-08-2006, 12:58 AM
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Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
Dear Mason,
P.S. One mistake in my message to you. I meant to say I published four GAMBLING books, not four POKER books. My mistake. Sorry. Only two of gambling books have been about poker.
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#20
09-08-2006, 01:12 AM
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Re: Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th
Dear Ben,
I appreciate your willingness to do an objective review of the book. I certainly did not mean to get involved in a donnybrook here; however, some of the things that were said about the quality of the book and charges made against me which I felt were patently untrue could not go unanswered. I am sure that everyone's goal here is to dispense valid, valuable knowledge to the poker community and to have some fun and intellectual challenge along the way. Frankly, in 40 years of University publishing (usually considered the nastiest of environments for personal attacks and oversized egos) I have never experienced the kind of "cattiness" and challenges to one's intellectual honesty experienced here. I must say I did not remain calm and above the fray and regret my inability to take the high road. Joe Navarro is a great guy with great ideas. I am proud to be associated with the book and I firmly believe it reprsents new ground-breaking insights for the game of poker. I hope you and the other posters will not take this as a sales pitch, it is not meant that way. It is simply a matter of being proud of something and wanting to stand by it. That said, I feel that I am certainly not helping the book or myself by continuing the dialogue which has unfolded here today. I apologize for the way things turned out, however, for those who read through the entire string of posts I believe they will understand the reason I reacted the way I did. Again, thanks for your last post and I wish you well in your future poker endeavors.
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