an argument against HUDs

[mntbikr15]

I havnet used a HUD in prob 10 months

[Dane S]

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i just assume everyone is retarded postflop until i know they're decent.

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[danzasmack]

The only time a HUD has ever cost me money is when I want to make a big fold but don't because of the guy's stats or when I put in an axtra bet because of the guy's stats.

[bobhalford]

I don't use HUD anymore. Money in the bank as far as I'm concerned. The OP's hand vs. the 30/20 is evidence of this.

[TomBrooks]

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I don't get your point. Most 30/20/2 players at 10/20 aren't betting that river unless they beat KT.

[/ QUOTE ]i guess my point is that villains flop check/raise is utterly retarded, and i assumed a 30/20/2 guy would not do something so moronic. what does he think i have? i either have him crucified or i am folding.

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- The flop checkraise play is an attempt to knock you off a bluff, although I agree this is not the best spot for it with QQ and both a King and Ace on the flop. Otherwise, I don't think it's not a bad play to use now and then except if it doesn't work right there, then a followup bet is made from OOP on the turn when the ploy starts to become expensive. However, it's still cheaper than c/c'g down and a lot of guys won't fold a premium underpair anyway unless it becomes excruciating clear they are beat. I'd be happy this guy is one of that ilk.

- Your stipulation that you'd have him crucified or fold would not be true if he had KJ or KQ, although I agree he should be thinking along those lines with QQ.

- It might have been true anyway to the extent that he would have folded the river had you bet (or maybe not because it's only one more), or he might have folded the flop if you 3bet or folded the turn if you raised.

- Maybe he has a read on you that you will cap light preflop and followup on an Ace flop without one. Admittedly he's taking that another step when he assumes you might continue with less than an Ace or a King.

[danzasmack]

His play is bad, but rational. He can't just donk one street because bet/calling seems awful to him. Once you cap and c-bet he stops thinking about his hand and only thinking about yours. So he c/r's the flop hoping you will fold out an underpair. This makes no sense because he BEATS those hands but he stops thinking about his hand.

You will always call the flop c/r with a pair because you probably think you have odds to call so he has to bet again.

Where he goes wrong is the river IMO. I don't think he expects you to have KT here. But say he put you on a normal capping range. You really shouldn't have AQ here because we have QQ. So that would mean you would need to have AJ? It seems like NOW he tries to read your hand and quits and decides to check.

Truthfully - I would say this guy is a winning player who was not running well.

[surfdoc]

This whole hand is interesting. I think the preflop cap is light but whatever. I am curious as to why Dean and Stellar are checking this flop. Will villian ever release a hand like KJ or KQ on the turn after we cap and bet 2 streets? If we check behind here are we calling bets on the turn and river?

Then there is the little wrinkle of getting checkraised on the flop. While I agree that this was bad play by the villian with QQ, are all you guys going to SD here with KTs if he bets the turn and river? Seems to me that after we cap preflop and he keeps firing we are almost always beat. I wish PB posted the hand that way and asked for river advice.

[danzasmack]

surf,

My biggest question is what villain assumes PB's pf range to be. When bob just calls the turn I have to be very confused because it's not AA/KK/AK. I would think AJ before KJ or KQ or KT for that matter so I think check is the only river line that makes sense.

I think it's odd to think of someone who will cap KTcc here pf and then fold that to one river bet.

[PokerBob]

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This whole hand is interesting. I think the preflop cap is light but whatever. I am curious as to why Dean and Stellar are checking this flop. Will villian ever release a hand like KJ or KQ on the turn after we cap and bet 2 streets? If we check behind here are we calling bets on the turn and river?

Then there is the little wrinkle of getting checkraised on the flop. While I agree that this was bad play by the villian with QQ, are all you guys going to SD here with KTs if he bets the turn and river? Seems to me that after we cap preflop and he keeps firing we are almost always beat. I wish PB posted the hand that way and asked for river advice.

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i think the river would be an easy fold in my shoes. the only hands i beat are QQ-TT, and does this guy really play those hands this way?

[PokerBob]

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I think it's odd to think of someone who will cap KTcc here pf and then fold that to one river bet.

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why? capping does not obligate one to call down indiscriminately.