Crying River Call ???

[PokerBob]

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Your river play is where you need to make one right thing out of the turn play and understanding you're strictly limited to flushing. You must fold if an A or K rivers based on what happened on the flop and turn. A calling station 3-bets you on the turn? No way it's good. I really don't care what the size of the pot now.

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah... my river call what questionable... but I don't know if it's horrible (based on the player)...

However, you're right... I can't imagine this quazi calling station 3 betting with anything less than 2 pair...

I do need to fold the river more often I think

[/ QUOTE ]

All these responses and you didn't get the point. The river doesn't matter because you bloated the pot. If you play the same hand thousands of times your river call isn't the spot where your spewing the most money, its the turn.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
All these responses and you didn't get the point. The river doesn't matter because you bloated the pot. If you play the same hand thousands of times your river call isn't the spot where your spewing the most money, its the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

TT,

I think he got the point. Also, every street always matters.

[Jeffage]

What was your turn raise meant to accomplish - he clearly has at least a queen or better and won't fold. Were you planning on calling down with AK unimproved? If not, I can't see raising. Also, a calling station type may be bet-three betting here after leading again.

If this "calling station" wouldn't 3-bet with one pair on the turn, then you basically have a flush draw once you get three bet (after IMO mistakenly raising the turn). You missed your flush draw. Fold.

Jeff

[ProfessorBen]

rofl at PokerBob. Never forget! nh sir.

[ship it pls]

i agree with doc that calling flop is better, but considering the actual flop action ... another donk on the turn against 'calling station' should not be a raise w/o made hand, against thinking player sure popping the turn is fine with some fold equity, but not given villain... payoff river sucks considering the 3-bet, but i call in real life and fold in theory...

imo i dont think we raise at any point during this hand given board texture and villain, i would just call it down and expect i need to make a hand to win this pot and if villain still fires river i'd just call still

[Bicycles_Biatch]

anyways... I do get the point that my turn play was horrid.

Turns out the guy had Q- 7 of spades.

[Bicycles_Biatch]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Bob... how did you know the fashion in which I light my cigars???

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
preflop is standard

flop is very questionable. I would like to hear your thoughts and plan before I tell you mine but I will tell you I think a call is better by a good amount.

Turn is somewhere between bad and horrible. Did you think he was donking planning to fold?

River is well, you know.

[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
My thought was that I was a big favorite against the random holdings of the guy to my right. He was a preflop calling station... but I've seen him donk bet several times with middle pair on the flop or turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should spend some more time discussing your flop play. With your description of the player, I think it is pretty clear the moment that donk bet slides in that you are not winning the hand unimproved. Sure he has donk bet middle pair before but given this board texture it is pretty unlikely that is what he has. He has a queen here a lot and a draw here a lot. (somtimes he has both [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) Now, when you raise the flop I think you should have a plan. You have to come in here and say the reason. You should tell me: well doc, I wanted a free card and was sure this loose passive donk would give it. Or I felt the pot was big enough that I wanted to clean up outs and the limpers were capable of having AND folding A2/A4 or K2/K4. I could even except the argument that you were growing tired of his donking ways and wanted him to understand that he needs to stop messing with you when you are in control of the pot. (I don't like this reasoning but I can at least get it a little from a metagame perspective). The reason you gave as being a favorite is not the right way to think about it. This is not unlimited bet HE.

You need to weigh the advantages and disadvantages of this flop raise. I laid out the main advantages above. Also, per Garland:

[ QUOTE ]
The flop raise is not bad, not at all:

(1) You avoid having to chop by cleaning out any other AK out there.
(2) You gain huge if you can actually fold out a hand like A2/A4 cleaning up your outs. This would be a major coup with the pot size now, but who knows?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are some problems. The preflop action doesn't really go along with a guy having another AK and even if he does you aren't gaining too much by folding him out since he has 2 of your outs instead of just one. Also, unless these guys are uber donks they won't often be limping with K4 or A4 since it will have to be offsuit to make a pair on this board since you have the As AND the Ks and the two small cards that could have you reverse dominated are both spades. So, these are things to think with respect to cleaning up outs especially in larger pots but IMO are not as valuable in this particular pot.

There is one main arguument not to raise the flop and I think it trumps all the reasons to raise it. By raising this particular flop you are really just destroying your implied odds and likely to get it HU with a better hand. As soon as the player you desribed fires out a bet you should realize that you will never win this pot unimproved. You then need to think about how you can get the most money in the pot with your solid draw. Somtimes playing straighforward is the correct way to play and you have to distance yourself from the 2p2 bird on your shoulder that starts screaming "raise raise raise that is what we do" whenever you have a good hand or draw. I will accept that maybe I see this spot as a little more black and white since some pretty good players came through this thread and glossed over the flop play but in this hand against this player on this board I will be very suprised if someone can convince me I am wrong. Thoughts?

[Sailboats]

Thoughts? you covered everything... good post.