Comparing WLLH 3rd edition to 2nd edition

[AliasMrJones]

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Yes agreed, books like that may be a good way to start, but people should not expect to make a fortune in online play with it, simply because it ain't that easy.

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This is a book for small stakes games. In that context, you're entirely wrong. Fancy moves in these games will only make you lose money. Making fomulaic, correct plays will bring in the dough.

SSH is similarly formulaic in its approach to the same subject. Sklansky claims that using the formulaic approach outlined in SSH, many people are making >$50,000 per year and that it is relatively easy to do so. I will grant you that $50,000 isn't a fortune, but it is an above-average salary and a lot of money to make playing a game.

[Shandrax]

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[ QUOTE ]
Yes agreed, books like that may be a good way to start, but people should not expect to make a fortune in online play with it, simply because it ain't that easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a book for small stakes games. In that context, you're entirely wrong. Fancy moves in these games will only make you lose money. Making fomulaic, correct plays will bring in the dough.

SSH is similarly formulaic in its approach to the same subject. Sklansky claims that using the formulaic approach outlined in SSH, many people are making >$50,000 per year and that it is relatively easy to do so. I will grant you that $50,000 isn't a fortune, but it is an above-average salary and a lot of money to make playing a game.

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Agreed, 50k/year ain't nothing to laugh about.

If I get it correctly the goal is to play like a "Blackjack-dealer". You have a script you run through and cash in on all the guys who play with more leaks over the long run than you do.

Now if it is indeed that easy, a bot should be able to to it, so I predict that the small stakes game will be dead the moment someone manages to get an interface going with Partypoker [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Btw, I wonder how 5 SSH-bots would do against 5 WLLH-bots in a ring game over 1000000 hands. Basically the ultimate proof which book is superior.

[Steve00007]

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I think I will never understand recipe-books like that one...

One should be reminded from the comparison to the dealer in Black Jack that a pure strategy will never work. Once people know what you are doing, you will lose (Fundamental Theorem of Poker). Poker is all about mixed strategies and adapting them specifically to the unique situation on your table.


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Beginners don't care what you are doing. Many of them don't even try to read your hands.

[BarronVangorToth]

3rd > 2nd

but

SSH is still > 3rd

and it's FAR from close.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[vulturesrow]

Barron,

You are comparing apples and oranges here. SSH is simply not a beginner's book, no matter how generous you are with the term. I see WLLH as a beginner's book and as such it is just fine. I think a more valid comparison is GSIH and WLLH. Personally, I think it is great that Lee was able to incorporate some changes to improve it. It takes some guts to do something like this. I am sure profit was motivator too of course. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But there is no question that this book can turn a beginning player into a winning one at the low limit games. SSH is most likely going to lead a beginner to spewing chips all over the table and wondering where he went wrong, unless he is one of the rare breed that just "gets it".

[BarronVangorToth]

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Barron,

You are comparing apples and oranges here. SSH is simply not a beginner's book, no matter how generous you are with the term.

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If you don't consider SSH a beginner's book (and I'm fine with not thinking that it is) then wouldn't you recommend Getting Started in Hold 'em?

Soooo many of my friends are getting into poker with this whole craze and all of them have been through the Triple Threat Tutorial of Getting Started in Hold 'em, Theory of Poker, and Small Stakes Hold 'em ... are we missing something here, because, from here, we have Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players and, if you're looking for tournament action, Dan Harrington's fine books, and, why not, getting your head into the game with Dr. Al's Psychology of Poker.

While 3rd > 2nd ... I'm not sure most need 3rd ... and there is still advice that I think is hurtful. And, as David Sklansky advised, much like with doctors, poker books should "do no harm" -- and I believe 3rd still has some advice that may be harmful ... maybe it won't lose you money in some spots, but places you should make money, you won't.

It's better ... but I don't think it's part of the necessary lexicon for most players.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[LozColbert]

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Soooo many of my friends are getting into poker with this whole craze and all of them have been through the Triple Threat Tutorial of Getting Started in Hold 'em, Theory of Poker, and Small Stakes Hold 'em

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You don't have King Yao's book anywhere in there? I do.

[BarronVangorToth]

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You don't have King Yao's book anywhere in there? I do.

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King Yao's book is quite good, agreed, but in the last few months, a number of my friends have gotten into poker and wanted to get the basics down first. King Yao's is good additional info after the basics, but not worth adding a 4th book to an already daunting curriculum ... Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players undoubtedly would come AFTER Weighing the Odds, but I'd still say that the first three they should read are Getting Started, TOP, and SSH. If you JUST had to give people three texts to get rolling, I think those are the three best.

And, to keep this on subject, even though WLLH 3rd > 2nd, I still wouldn't put it into the rotation. Not in 2005 and the madness that is the current metagame.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi binions:

I won't get into many specifics but I do disagree with much of this. Here's one example:

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In early position unraised pots, he now says to fold QJs, JTs, A9s and 88/77

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As we have pointed out for years, WLLH is targeted for low limit games which usually feature many players who play too many hands and go too far with them. I can't see how any of these hands won't show a profit in games like this when you can initially come in for a limp.

But I have another problem with all of this that i want to address here. From what I read Edition Two needed a lot of fixing. From The Intelligent Gambler:

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I asked Barry [Tannebaum] to grab a copy of WLLH and a pen and start marking. And mark he did, leaving red ink on most of the pages. ... And in some cases: "I hate this -- it produces leaks." I listened, contemplated, argued, and (usually) eventually agreed with his recommendations.

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Now I remember Jones over the years getting pretty upset with me because I said this book had a lot of errors, and I remember Jones getting even more upset with Ed Miller for being very specific about much of the advice in Edition 2.

Now Lee, you can't have it both ways. You need to admit that we were right and your book needed a lot of fixing. I haven't read the third edition yet, but I hope you realize that I was absolutely correct in not publishing your first edition years ago. I also hope that your third edition is now finally a top notch guide to the new player, but I will withhold any judgement until I have read it thoroughly (and it will be a while before I can get to it).

Best wishes,
Mason

[binions]

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Hi binions:

I won't get into many specifics but I do disagree with much of this. Here's one example:

[ QUOTE ]
In early position unraised pots, he now says to fold QJs, JTs, A9s and 88/77

[/ QUOTE ]

As we have pointed out for years, WLLH is targeted for low limit games which usually feature many players who play too many hands and go too far with them. I can't see how any of these hands won't show a profit in games like this when you can initially come in for a limp.


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I completely agree.

In low limit games where 4-6 people see the flop, I don't see how you can fold middle pairs and suited cards that add to 20 in unraised pots.

I like Barry T, but does he play low limit holdem? These new starting hand guidelines seem more appropriate for tighter, tougher games.