3/6NL: KK in 4-bet pot facing turn push - Page 2

luckychewy · #11 01-17-2007, 08:45 PM

WHY DO PEOPLE CARE IF HE FOLDS TT-QQ/AK TO A PUSH??? HE'S MAKING A HUGE ERROR IF HE DOES THIS REGARDLESS OF OUR CARDS!!!

boomshakalaka · #12 01-17-2007, 08:45 PM

so if hes not calling with TT or JJ then hes calling QQ+ and youre robusto.

Proofrock · #13 01-17-2007, 08:47 PM

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uhh this is like the most standard push pf imo.

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Okay ... so you're a TAG playing in a pot vs. another TAG who hasn't been particularly active preflop yet (very few 4-bets). After making a small-ish 4bet, what is your calling range for his 5-bet push (getting less than 2:1 pot odds)?

luckychewy · #14 01-17-2007, 08:49 PM

anything i 4-bet for value is not going to be folded to a 5th bet. anything air i 4-bet is.

Proofrock · #15 01-17-2007, 08:50 PM

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WHY DO PEOPLE CARE IF HE FOLDS TT-QQ/AK TO A PUSH??? HE'S MAKING A HUGE ERROR IF HE DOES THIS REGARDLESS OF OUR CARDS!!!

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Please explain this to me -- I honestly don't understand.

luckychewy · #16 01-17-2007, 08:53 PM

i explained it in another thread where some nit 4-bet and folded kk to a push pf, i'll find the link in a minute.

EDIT: okay here it is. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=2#Post8729078. it's basically the same concept here.

mikeJ · #17 01-17-2007, 08:53 PM

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Why didn't you shove pre? It's not like he's folding anything he 4-bet w/ to a 5-bet.

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I sort of disagree, though I could be persuaded otherwise. If he's 4-betting TT+,AK, I don't think he's calling TT or JJ, since 5-betting pretty much restricts my range to KK+ (especially since I've been playing tight). Anyway, I don't mind pushing the flop in position. It just so happens that the flop was bad.

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If he 4-bets w/ TT/JJ/AK, it tells you something about what he thinks about TT/JJ/AK. He thinks it's GOOD and is rarely folding it to a 5-bet if he decided to 4-bet w/ it.

Think about 4-betting w/ TT/JJ/AK in general. It's a bad play in villain's spot. Stands to reason, villain is bad and will call your AI w/ that 4-betting range.

Proofrock · #18 01-17-2007, 09:32 PM

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WHY DO PEOPLE CARE IF HE FOLDS TT-QQ/AK TO A PUSH??? HE'S MAKING A HUGE ERROR IF HE DOES THIS REGARDLESS OF OUR CARDS!!!

...

i explained it in another thread where some nit 4-bet and folded kk to a push pf, i'll find the link in a minute.

EDIT: okay here it is. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...=2#Post8729078. it's basically the same concept here.

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Thanks for the link. However, I don't see how it applies here.

1. That hand is a 4-bet, fold KK to a 5-bet push getting 7:4, which is *entirely different* than me 3-betting KK and calling (rather than 5-betting) KK. Since a 2+2er was willing to fold KK in that situation, that seems to strengthen the case that another TAG player would be willing to fold weaker hands. For the record, I wasn't folding preflop, but pushing > folding doesn't necessarily mean pushing > calling.

2. It also doesn't justify your statement that Villain folding TT-QQ,AK is a huge error regardless of our cards in this situation. None of these hands *should* call a push given our hand, and I think it's more likely that Villain will put more money in on most flops with the weakest part of his range.

luckychewy · #19 01-17-2007, 09:40 PM

ugh, okay, here is what i mean.

first of all, just because a 2p2'er says something doesn't mean it's right. there are an enormous ammount of 2p2'ers who play god awful. secondly, if villain 4-bets tt-qq/ak and folds to a push, what does he gain? he gains nothing...he turns his hand into a bluff and loses tons of value. if this is his plan then he should either call the 3-bet and take a flop, or plan to felt it once he 4-bets, both perfectly acceptable based on certain game conditions imo.

'None of these hands *should* call a push given our hand, and I think it's more likely that Villain will put more money in on most flops with the weakest part of his range.'

of course if he see's your hand he shouldn't call a push, but if he see's you hand he also shouldn't 4-bet. and if your range to play back vs a 4-bet(call or fold) beats a range of tt-qq/ak significantly, then he shouldn't be 4-betting in the first place because he will never get called by a worse hand and never fold a worse one(unless he happens to 4-bet tt and plan to fold to a push and you have jj and fold or some other random LOL situation).

i'm pretty much done discussing this subject because no one has even given a close to legitment reason to justify 4-bet/folding these hands pf. so, until someone does i'll leave it as this.

Proofrock · #20 01-17-2007, 09:45 PM

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I doubt so much that he overbet shoves QQ, TT, flush, etc. Getting almost 2:1 and with a lot of potential outs he's gonna have to show me aces.

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Getting about 1.75:1, I have 2 outs vs. QQ and AhA, 11 outs vs AA no heart, and I'm a favorite over any other likely hand (though only 2:1 favorite over AhK). A simple EV calculation gives me 20.3% equity vs. the range QQ+,AhKx. I think it's wishful thinking for him to push AK no heart, and I'd have to throw in JJ to make it a profitable call, at which point I feel like I'm just trying to talk myself into a call (44% vs. the range JJ+,AhKx)