Ugly Axs Hand

[Fantam]

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I like a flop raise here. You have TP, gutshot and the nut BDFD. There are three players left to act your hand is pretty strong and there are hands here that might peel for one but fold for two that we wouldn't mind folding.

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I agree that your hand is pretty strong, if you have the best hand on the flop.

However, if you are behind to a better Ace, then I think your hand is probably only a weakish draw to your gut-shot and bdfd.

The only hand, that I could really think of peeling for 1, but folding for 2 on the flop, would be say 65. I suppose a medium pocket pair might also peel for one.

[sean c]

Fantam there are other hands i was thinking of. Someone with a four, maybe a pair with a lone [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or even another five. Also this is such a drawy board i don't think BB's bet means a whole bunch.

[Fantam]

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I prefer OP's flop check to the suggestions for a flop raise.

If you have the best hand, a flop raise would be for value.

However, one of your 4 opponents could easily have a better Ace. Then your flop raise would only help to protect that player's hand. (I think its unlikely that a better Ace will fold.)

With your gut-shot outs, bdfd and the chance that your hand might be best, I think that its worth calling the flop bet.

However, if you raise the flop and a better Ace 3-bets, your draws start to lose value, particularly if this results in other players folding.

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If you get 3-bet you can c/f the turn ui.

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I suppose you could c/f the turn ui.

So does that mean that your flop raise was for information ?

Thats because you could also c/f the turn ui, if you just called the flop bet.

My thinking was that I would prefer to keep other players in on the flop, to get better value for my draws.

I would also like to have seen a showdown ui inexpensively if possible.

[Fantam]

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Fantam there are other hands i was thinking of. Someone with a four, maybe a pair with a lone [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or even another five. Also this is such a drawy board i don't think BB's bet means a whole bunch.

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Yes ok, this makes sense, thx.

I suppose there are more possible straight and other draw hands than I was considering.

[OrigamiSensei]

House, I hope the ouch was because the hand was difficult, not because you thought I was taking a shot at you (he did a great job on my hand review and I thank him). I do disagree somewhat with your assessment on counting outs in this hand. I don't think an ace helps me; at the very least the ace outs have to be severely discounted due to the high probability I'm out-kicked. There shouldn't be a need to greatly discount the 2 fives, the gutshot or BDFD. Thus I think I'm looking at 7-8 outs max. If any of those come in I'm pretty happy with my hand. LATE EDIT: Actually, there are two clubs on the board - the four and five of clubs could be dangerous as well.

I've been thinking about this more and it seems like a flop raise is likely to only knock out people we'd like to bring along while serving to protect the hand of someone with a better ace. There is a small possibility I fold an ace with say a 4-8 kicker but I doubt it. The question is if I do raise, does it slow down some aggression on the turn and allow me to draw more cheaply? Maybe not a free card play but a see the showdown for one more big bet play. I've seen the responses and I'm still not sure on the right flop play.

[Fadook]

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Assume you are behind. You have 5 outs to 2 pair or trips

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If you're behind on the flop it's most likely to an A with a bigger kicker. So you have to discount your outs to trips.

[HouseCalls]

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Assume you are behind. You have 5 outs to 2 pair or trips

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If you're behind on the flop it's most likely to an A with a bigger kicker. So you have to discount your outs to trips.

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I stand corrected... I should not be allowed to post before I've had coffe in the morning [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Still gives us about 7 outs and 28% equity; its closer but I still think I raise here.

[HouseCalls]

No the ouch was about the hand which was not an easy one IMO. Upon further review my outs count sucked so its alot closer than I was saying but I lean (now slightly) toward a raise.

Take Care - House

[kerowo]

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If you get 3-bet you can c/f the turn ui.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose you could c/f the turn ui.

So does that mean that your flop raise was for information ?

Thats because you could also c/f the turn ui, if you just called the flop bet.

My thinking was that I would prefer to keep other players in on the flop, to get better value for my draws.

I would also like to have seen a showdown ui inexpensively if possible.

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I don't want to see a show down with this hand. The only kicker we beat is a 4, if someone 3-bets us and we don't have reads on them it's safe to assume they have a better ace than us and the flop is the last place we want to put money in ui. I guess you could call that an information raise, but only if you are willing to listen to the information that comes back.

[MN_Mime]

Interesting hand.

My first impression was that it was a crime that you didn't find a raise on the flop or the turn but reviewing the action makes me think that CO's got 54s.

I have to put BB on the case ace; only a moron keeps leading here without it. I can't buy a flopped straight or two pair because he slows down too soon on 4th and 5th street.

CO's action fits a straight pretty well, I think. He wants to keep customers on the flop and when he dodges the club on the turn and again on the river, he pumps the pot.

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I'd still raise the flop to charge the gutshots 2 bets to come. You pretty much have to call down after that, but I think you can release on the river if CO still comes over the top.