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#11
07-25-2007, 04:58 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
Ok guys as stated in origional post, i know that flat calling flop is shocking. And i know where i played the hand wrong.
I was simply not sure about the turn call as it is probable that he has a weak A, and i am not getting the odds to go for the flush and even if it comes it might not be best. However there is a chance that he disnt have an A but is on the flush draw. Here is a more detaitailed reason for calling. A. he has an A makeing it very unlikely he has a higher flush draw as he would surely raise preflop with Ak or AQ. B. He has a flush draw. or C. He has a J unlikely with a better kicker as he would raise with JQ or better. 
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#12
07-25-2007, 04:59 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely agree that i should have shoved on the flop, but totaly disagree with shoveing preflop. A. because i was going to shove on flop if he checks which i figure is likely concidering his limp. [/ QUOTE ] Why is this better than shoving pf? I can think of precisely zero reasons. [ QUOTE ] B. After the blinds pass i will still have $3200 in chips which is enough for me to wait for a better hand. [/ QUOTE ] I suppose, although this is a great spot to add almost 25% to your stack by jamming here. He could be trapping, but it's much more likely he's weak here or he would have raised. [ QUOTE ] This is the perfect situation for a stop and go. (i know this isnt a proper stop and go as that is done out of possition, but i cant think of an name for this play) [/ QUOTE ] Stop and gos are done when calling a raise oop. This is checking in position. This isn't even a stop, it's a never get out of neutral. [ QUOTE ] unfortunetly when i floped top pair my thinking got all messed up. i played the flop shockingly and did not do the correct thing. [/ QUOTE ] yeah. On the turn, though, I think it's close. your heart is big enough that I probably call, too, although as I put my chips in, I'd wonder how I missed my two good chances at jamming...
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#13
07-25-2007, 05:11 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
[ QUOTE ]
Ok guys as stated in origional post, i know that flat calling flop is shocking. And i know where i played the hand wrong. I was simply not sure about the turn call as it is probable that he has a weak A, and i am not getting the odds to go for the flush and even if it comes it might not be best. However there is a chance that he disnt have an A but is on the flush draw. Here is a more detaitailed reason for calling. A. he has an A makeing it very unlikely he has a higher flush draw as he would surely raise preflop with Ak or AQ. B. He has a flush draw. or C. He has a J unlikely with a better kicker as he would raise with JQ or better. [/ QUOTE ] OK, as played, your call on the turn is correct if you feel the range in your OP is accurate to his holdings (it seems like it is), the pot is giving you great odds to call with your equity. Your turn call is fine. To recap: I think checking instead of pushing preflop is fine. You might get a hand like Ax to call preflop if you push that you are behind, but would fold on a flop that misses his hand. Anyways, pushing on the flop is essential, and you understand that...OK. As played, calling the turn is correct given your pot odds and equity against his range.
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#14
07-25-2007, 05:14 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I absolutely agree that i should have shoved on the flop, but totaly disagree with shoveing preflop. A. because i was going to shove on flop if he checks which i figure is likely concidering his limp. [/ QUOTE ] Why is this better than shoving pf? I can think of precisely zero reasons. [/ QUOTE ] Ok the reason for this play is this guy had been playing passive postflop in the past and he is ona gonna hit a pair on flop about 38% of the time. So i am much more likely to win the hand post flop, than get my money in bad preflop. (his calling range is wider preflop than post) [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] B. After the blinds pass i will still have $3200 in chips which is enough for me to wait for a better hand. [/ QUOTE ] I suppose, although this is a great spot to add almost 25% to your stack by jamming here. He could be trapping, but it's much more likely he's weak here or he would have raised. [/ QUOTE ] As stated above i felt it was more likely that he would fold post flop than pre. A greater spot to add 25% [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] This is the perfect situation for a stop and go. (i know this isnt a proper stop and go as that is done out of possition, but i cant think of an name for this play) [/ QUOTE ] Stop and gos are done when calling a raise oop. This is checking in position. This isn't even a stop, it's a never get out of neutral. [/ QUOTE ] Read the quote mate, i know its not a stop and go but u know what im trying to say. What should i call it?
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#15
07-25-2007, 05:16 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Ok guys as stated in origional post, i know that flat calling flop is shocking. And i know where i played the hand wrong. I was simply not sure about the turn call as it is probable that he has a weak A, and i am not getting the odds to go for the flush and even if it comes it might not be best. However there is a chance that he disnt have an A but is on the flush draw. Here is a more detaitailed reason for calling. A. he has an A makeing it very unlikely he has a higher flush draw as he would surely raise preflop with Ak or AQ. B. He has a flush draw. or C. He has a J unlikely with a better kicker as he would raise with JQ or better. [/ QUOTE ] OK, as played, your call on the turn is correct if you feel the range in your OP is accurate to his holdings (it seems like it is), the pot is giving you great odds to call with your equity. Your turn call is fine. To recap: I think checking instead of pushing preflop is fine. You might get a hand like Ax to call preflop if you push that you are behind, but would fold on a flop that misses his hand. Anyways, pushing on the flop is essential, and you understand that...OK. As played, calling the turn is correct given your pot odds and equity against his range. [/ QUOTE ] Thankx mate. Exactly the responce i was looking for. so many people slagging me off for calling on flop, despite me saying several times i know it was wrong. And im glad that you feel i made the right call
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#16
07-25-2007, 05:21 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
[ QUOTE ]
Ok the reason for this play is this guy had been playing passive postflop in the past and he is ona gonna hit a pair on flop about 38% of the time. So i am much more likely to win the hand post flop, than get my money in bad preflop. (his calling range is wider preflop than post) [/ QUOTE ] OK. I guess it depends on what you think he'll call with preflop. This would be an interesting EV calc to do if you gave the range you expected, based on previous play. [ QUOTE ] Read the quote mate, i know its not a stop and go but u know what im trying to say. What should i call it? [/ QUOTE ] You're missing my point, though. I'm not trying to criticize you for misnaming the play, I just don't think it makes sense here, since it's dependent on the V checking. Which, incidentally, he didn't, even though he missed.
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#17
07-25-2007, 05:23 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
Just to put this out there so you can see from a math point of view why the call was correct:
You are getting ~1.89:1 to call. This means you can call to be breakeven EV wise if you have 35% pot equity. 1.89:1 roughly reduces to 65:35. So if you are a 35% underdog (pot equity) and call, your call will break even chip-wise in the long run. In this case, against the assigned range of villian, you have 47.5% equity, plenty more than you would need to make this a break-even call. So, this call is profitable chip-wise in the long run. In fact, you could call and break even chip-wise with as low as 1.11:1 odds here (assuming villian's range is correct). This is why your call is +cEV
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#18
07-25-2007, 05:42 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
Shove pre.
Shove flop. Call turn but expect to be behind more than you are ahead
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#20
07-25-2007, 06:01 PM
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Re: Correct call or not?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Shove pre. [/ QUOTE ] Shove 4k into an 1000 pot with Jack high? Not bad I suppose, but why? What aren't we shoving if we're shoving J-high? [/ QUOTE ] I gues it dont matter at this stage what i am shoveing with as i am hopeing he will fold, cards dont matter. And this only a good play if i feel his limp is weak. However the previous 2 rounds i was give a walk so i felt that it was likely he had a hand he would call with. And he probably would have!
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