Min raising KQ preflop

[Supwithbates]

It won't work because you're giving everyone correct odds to call with any 2. You're building a pot without getting any additional information because no one will ever fold in such a situation once they've limped. In fact, by minraising, you're GIVING information without getting any in return. You're building a pot the size of your stack on a hand you're going to miss 2/3 of the time, and even if you hit you won't always know you're best.

Go read the fundamental theorem of poker in David Sklansky's "Theory of Poker", and ask yourself if minraising with a marginal hand like KQ causes your opponent to make any mistakes.

My question for you is this: How is minraising here giving you any more information than simply calling and seeing a smaller pot? Any player bad enough to limp AA, KK, QQ from early position at a table this limp-happy is probably bad enough to flatcall your minraise once you make it. Very rarely will you extract any additional information, all you're doing is building a multiway pot where you're not likely to be best, and even if you hit you can't be sure whether or not you're good. At that point, the pot will be big enough that any bet commits you, so your only viable postflop option in such a situation is to push and pray. Which is frankly what I'd do preflop (though not with KQ in a multilimped pot).

[CybrPunk]

Martin,

With all due respect this is an awful idea. You're advocating putting in nearly 25% of our stack with three other limpers in the pot already? This is just awful. Allow me to explain why.

Right now we have something known as fold equity. With 11 BBs we can put people to a decision for enough chips preflop that they will likely fold a wide range of hands to a push. They may also fold some medium strength hands under the same circumstances and we may even get some better hands (like Ace-rag) to fold as well. If we put in 25% of our stack here we lose that fold equity versus some players. What was once enough chips to get people to fold is now not quite so much... and players with more 'marginal' hands will likely call where they would've folded for a small amount more.

On the flop we are now last to act in a pot where our only possible bet postflop is all-in due to the size of the pot. If all 5 players still to act come along we're looking at a 2000 chip pot with 1800 chips behind. We are acting in a pot where there are 3 to 5 other players expected in the pot with us and it's very likely that if we miss the flop (which happens 2/3 of the time) we have to give up here having just thrown in nearly 25% of our chips. Add to that the fact that one of the 4 other players is likely to bet before us and if we miss the flop we are folding for sure.

Pushing preflop to pickup the dead money in the pot or get it heads up versus one caller is the best possible situation for us here. There's almost half our stack in the pot and it's a big amount of chips for one of the limpers to call in order to 'look us up'. In most cases this will prove to be a +EV move because the 'dead money' in the pot increases our pot odds enough to make this a good situation to get involved - even as a slight underdog in the hand - because of the possibility that the limpers will all fold in addition to the times we are called and we win the pot. If everyone folds 60% of the time and we end up a 60/40 dog when called the other 40% then we are likely to win a total of 76% of the time here. Overall this makes for a situation where you win often enough to make this move extremely profitable.

Minraising to put in 25% of our stack will never be +EV and all too often we'll have to fold after the flop having lost money with no chance at winning the pot. Nobody is folding for a minraise preflop and I would expect the big blind to come along with a good range of hands because of the odds he would be expected to get there.

You're fairly new here. I would advise you listen to what prior posters said because these guys know what they're talking about. Your 'revolutionary' idea isn't anything new. Rather than tell us we're wrong and not listening to you take your own advice in regards to what the other posters here have told you. Your idea is flawed at its very core. When you come to understand poker a little better you'll see why this is regarded as a very 'weak' idea.

[XraySpeX]

The problem that I see with min raising after 3 limpers is that the vast majority of the time you are getting called by all of the limpers. Those limpers are most likely holding small pair and suited connectors.

What you are doing is creating a big pot that you have a small chance of winning. Most the time you just wasted 400 chips when everyone calls and the flop misses your hand. The other part of the time you are hitting your hand and either winning that pot (yipee) or losing to one of the other 4 players when your one pair hand is no good.

I myself do not like to build a huge pot against a bunch of people hoping to hit my hand hard. I don't want to be giving up any chips without pushing at this stage.

I think that most the time a push is certainly reasonable in this situation. You are hoping no one calls and you pick up the pot preflop. I think the second best play is to fold. You can wait until you are opening the pot or you have a stronger hand. You have enough chips.

I think that a minimum raise is the worst because you are costing yourself valuable chips the vast majority of the time... you don't need to throw these chips away.

XraySpeX

[Sherman]

I don't see why calling is that awful. We have good position and are getting good pot odds. I would certainly not fault anyone for going A/I either, but I think that move is read dependent (are any of the players trappy?).

If I get in a limped pot w/KQ, and flop a K or a Q (with no ace) I usually figure I have TPTK (even though it is possible for someone to have AK or AQ, I highly doubt it with Ms this low, they would be raising/pushing PF).

So a K or Q high flop is a particularly good result for calling here. Only hands I am worried about are limped sets (oh yeah, they aren't folding PF either to a min-raise).

Beyond this, if you min-raise you open the door for someone with 99 or TT in EP to push A/I. Using your logic you figure this for AA or KK and fold. Clearly then when someone pushes with these hands (which are certainly in their range) YOU make a big mistake by folding with dead money in the pot and slightly worse than 50/50.

[Martin Carlsson]

I wish to thank all the players who took the time to explain why this is play is a bit on the weak side.

Next time you see an extremely tight, somewhat aggressive and very straightforward player, who all of a sudden makes this move, you can be fairly sure his hand is KQ, I would never have made this play whit KJ, AT or QJs. It won’t be me, but someone who should have started this post.

Martin Carlsson

[Soulman]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish to thank all the players who took the time to explain why this is play is a bit on the weak side.

Next time you see an extremely tight, somewhat aggressive and very straightforward player, who all of a sudden makes this move, you can be fairly sure his hand is KQ, I would never have made this play whit KJ, AT or QJs. It won’t be me, but someone who should have started this post.

Martin Carlsson

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh...lol?