12-24, standard catch-n-fold?

[mongidig]

[ QUOTE ]
12-24, 8 handed at the moment.

Reads:

BB is an older guy, and seems to play a straightforward tight-passive game. He's not a total rock, though, as he'll get into some hands and be aggressive when warranted (3-betting an overpair on the flop, that sort of thing) - but I've never seen him push a draw hard or otherwise get out of line.

UTG+2 is too loose, but generally a decent player since he's sober right now.

MP is an aggro fish. He likes to do things like 3-bet the turn against multiple opponents with a weak draw, and cold-call a PFR and bet/call-down with bottom pair no kicker.

I have a tight image, and especially right now as I haven't been playing many pots, but I've been winning the ones that I do.

PF Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero limps, UTG+2 limps, MP limps, BB checks - everyone else folds.

Flop 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players, 4.5 SB)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP calls, <font color="red">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Turn J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 5 BB)
<font color="red"> BB bets</font>, Hero folds...

I thought PF was a little iffy, but I wasn't too worried about getting isolated, because people like to cold-call in the game. So even if I had to pay 2 bets I figured I'd be in good shape in a big multi-way pot, othewise I thought my limp my encourage more limping behind me.

Rest of the hand standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

preflop is all about game dynamics, how well you play post flop ect, and we have been through this before so I won't go into it here.

Flop: I am not sure what betting here is going to accomplish. The board is coordinated and you have a LAG behind you and you are out of position. You are probably not going to win the pot or significantly reduce the number of players in the pot by betting. Just keep it cheap for right now and check.

As played I would just call after being check-raised. I have a few problems with reraising here. You know the BB has a big hand and if it is a straight he will cap the betting(Unless he is one of those passive types who will wait until no more clubs fall before he puts more money into the pot). Assuming a situation were you three bet and everyone folds back to the BB and he caps you will know that you only have four outs to win. Unfortunately, you won't have the odds to continue when he bets the turn, because your opponent is passive and may very well check when you hit your hand on the river allowing you to make only one more bet(maybe no bets because an eight would put a four straight on the board all in a row and BB may fold two pair). So now you fold and deprive yourself the opportunity to suck out on the river. Yes, by three betting you may get a free card on the turn, but who is to say that you won't get a free card any way if a scare card hits. The lag may very well cap the betting just for the heck of it and now you would be stuck between two players who have shown aggression in a more inflated pot. Three betting to buy outs doesn't apply here. I would prefer to keep the lag in the hand and try to cheaply get to a showdown.

Yes, I could fold this turn against some players I know(not many). Just be careful about your reads. I agree with other posters that BB could easily have two pair here in which case you have plenty of outs to continue to the river. Remember, just because you would bet this flop with two pair or a set or even a straight that doesn't mean the BB thinks the same way. You think "I have a vulnerable hand and I should bet to protect it" Your opponent thinks " I have a two pair, time to slow play and check-raise".

[n.s.]

On the flop I was thinking that I have a big draw (as much as 10 outs), a tight image, and no reason to think that anyone else hit this flop. True, I was somewhat worried about MP raising me, but like a lot of aggro players, he tended to save his moves for larger pots - unless he had some piece of this, I would expect him to just fold here.

True, it's a bit ambitious to think that I can bluff through 3 other players, but I figured I have lots of outs to fall back on if I get called (and if everyone calls I could even be getting value on the bet). Finally, I thought it would disguise my hand well, so that if I get called/raised by someone with 9T, I could get paid off in spades if an 8 came.

Perhaps the flop bet was a little thin, though. It's not a bet I would make every time.

[benwood]

10 outs on the flop?Was there an 8 on the flop instead of the 7?

[n.s.]

[ QUOTE ]
10 outs on the flop?Was there an 8 on the flop instead of the 7?

[/ QUOTE ]

4 for the gutshot, plus 6 more for my two overcards. Counting the overcards on this board as full outs is very optimistic, I know.

[benwood]

Yea.You're right.I misread it.My bad.In that case,I would prefer a check to a bet,but I don't think that it's as bad of a play as most of the other posters seem to think.Besides these 10 cards that you mentioned,a K or Q can pick up a draw for you,&amp; another spade picks up a draw,too,of course,so there are a lot of cards in the deck that can improve your chances on the turn.

[mongidig]

I am thinking this hand is more like a 6 outer after discounting some outs. I wouldn't even consider the ten as an out. I would discount one eight because of the flush draw. I would give you one out for the back door flush. I would give you two outs for any non club Jack since you may still lose even if you hit(Jack with higher kicker, straights, redraws created by Jack etc.) So I don't think your draw is as big as you think and I certainly don't think you have the best hand right now.

Does this sound about right regarding the number of outs he has?

I do agree a bet on the flop disguises your hand and if you don't think it will get raised the bet is not awful.