NL100 - Villain donks into our midpair on the turn...

[tubasteve]

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I was coaching today and my student played this hand. He runs at about 19/15/3 and plays a pretty normal solid game, and should have a pretty benign image. Villain is 33/15/2, no other history.

Preflop: We pot from CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], villain is SB and calls

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], villain checks, we bet $6 into $8, he calls. Pot is $21 or so.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], villain donks 1/2 pot into us.


Whats our plan, and what range should we be putting the villain on? Please give an explanation as to why you would choose a particular action, because saying "call" doesn't really help me. I need both turn AND river plans, so please elaborate about your lines. Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Betting this flop is a mistake. Just because we c-bet the majority of time doesn't make it correct ALL the time.

Checking this flop allows us to do a few things. First of all we keep the pot small (this isn't the number one reason to check the flop but it helps).

Secondly, we get more value out of smaller pocket pairs and lesser pairs. Pocket 7's will definitely call a turn bet and MIGHT call a river bet. Whereas if we bet this flop and get called it's like we are in no mans land.

We check turn and check river? We are giving up value by doing this but the whole crux of the problem lies in the flop play and not in the turn/river as you alluded to in your OP.

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i agree that you shouldn't always cbet the flop, but i think saying cbetting is a mistake is way wrong IMO. you can still get 2 streets if you bet flop, check turn, and bet river.

[Unknown Soldier]

yeah i agree, in my experience it's fine. ill call the river sometimes.

flop bet is good. checking JJ is slightly better, but not a huge difference. I'd bet both.

[Speedlimits]

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I was coaching today and my student played this hand. He runs at about 19/15/3 and plays a pretty normal solid game, and should have a pretty benign image. Villain is 33/15/2, no other history.

Preflop: We pot from CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], villain is SB and calls

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], villain checks, we bet $6 into $8, he calls. Pot is $21 or so.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], villain donks 1/2 pot into us.


Whats our plan, and what range should we be putting the villain on? Please give an explanation as to why you would choose a particular action, because saying "call" doesn't really help me. I need both turn AND river plans, so please elaborate about your lines. Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting this flop is a mistake. Just because we c-bet the majority of time doesn't make it correct ALL the time.

Checking this flop allows us to do a few things. First of all we keep the pot small (this isn't the number one reason to check the flop but it helps).

Secondly, we get more value out of smaller pocket pairs and lesser pairs. Pocket 7's will definitely call a turn bet and MIGHT call a river bet. Whereas if we bet this flop and get called it's like we are in no mans land.

We check turn and check river? We are giving up value by doing this but the whole crux of the problem lies in the flop play and not in the turn/river as you alluded to in your OP.

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i agree that you shouldn't always cbet the flop, but i think saying cbetting is a mistake is way wrong IMO. you can still get 2 streets if you bet flop, check turn, and bet river.

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We get more value out of draws that villain will pick up on the turn if we use c/b/b line though. When I said it was a mistake I just meant not optimal, it's still profitable to c-bet though.

c-betting 99 here is also not as good as checking here because we can't stand a c/r.