MTT Heads Up Moral Dilemma - What's Your Move?

[PokerJokerAA]

I'm taking the blinds and I'd expect them to do the same to me. It's minus EV to wait for them to come back if youre the only one doing it.

[FakeKramer]

Respect.

[Requin]

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What is Right and Wrong may not always be governed by rules or laws.


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In real life I agree with you. In the middle of a strategy game, I don't. I just can't accept a situation where I'm forced to trust other people to act in accordance with a nonbinding 'rule' that will keep them from gaining significant money. I don't think its that bad to steal either, as I would accept it if someone did it to me. Overall, my net ev stays the about the same, just with added variance. The only unfair gain I have is when other people sit out for me. I feel that more people will steal from me than will sit out for me, and so overall I'm stealing more often from those who would steal from me, than from those who wouldn't. I look at it as hurting people who don't deserve it sometimes, in order to protect myself from/punish those whom would steal from me often. To not steal from these 'good guys' means I have to leave myself unprotected from the 'bad guys', something I'm not willing to do. Of course, the best solution would be to make site rules that deal with this situation and enforce them. But until that happens, I'm going to keep protecting myself. After all, if everyone took this attitude, then there would be no stealing of ev, just more variance.

[curtains]

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No dilemma at all. Unethical to steal his blinds. Exactly as A plus said, give him the respect you'd give a college prof or any other situation in which you have to wait for someone. For me, that is fifteen minutes. This has come up for me before, and there was never any doubt in my mind that I was correct in sitting out. I thgink I only had to wait 2 min.

Just like the opponent who is inadvertantly showing you his hole cards. It isn't a "poker-edge" to not look away, it is just plain immoral. (or unethical... I get those two words confused.)

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Would you also like me to send my bill for all the Internet connections I have to these opponents whom like to tempt fate by playin with only one? I don't pay 2 high speed providers and a wireless provider because I like to waste money, I do it so that when my Internet goes down I can instantly switch to another service. Anyone who decides not to pay that money each month is at their own risk. My internet has crashed many times during my career but I've never had trouble reconnecting almost immediately.

Don't steal their blinds if you don't want to, I'd consider that sort of nice I guess, but to call it unethical to do is an insult IMO. People who gamble on the internet for a lot of money are responsible for their Internet connection. If they are scared it might crash, they should have a backup handy.

If anyone here wants me to not steal your blinds in such a situation Ill be happy to, just agree to split my Internet bills and we've got a deal. It's not a ton of money, but there is no reason I should be required to pay it while the rest of the world can disconnect at their own leisure against me.

[brandofo]

Ummm...I've had this happen in a few SNGs where we are heads up and my opponent disconnects. My standard procedure has been to click the raise button as fast as possible to steal the most amount of blinds before he returns. I would not think twice about doing this heads up in a MTT final table.

[JSchnett]

sit out for 5 minutes, if he doesnt come back steal blinds

[CardSharpCook]

Curtains, just because you pay for fire insurance doesn't mean that you now have the right to set houses on fire just because all those other fools didn't take the precaution of getting fire insurance. I too have 3 internet connections. Having 3 internet connections prevents me from ever being in the situation where someone can take from me. It doesn't give me the right to steal from others. Get it? You're paying for insurance and security against dishonest people. (or, in my case, losing action at a limit table while DCed)

[curtains]

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Curtains, just because you pay for fire insurance doesn't mean that you now have the right to set houses on fire just because all those other fools didn't take the precaution of getting fire insurance. I too have 3 internet connections. Having 3 internet connections prevents me from ever being in the situation where someone can take from me. It doesn't give me the right to steal from others. Get it? You're paying for insurance and security against dishonest people. (or, in my case, losing action at a limit table while DCed)

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Pretty sure this is a bad analogy. I see it more as the difference between someone who has to be at a job interview at some time, one person gets up 30 minutes earlier just in case something goes wrong with the train, the other gets up at the normal time, with the knowledge that 99% of the time everything should be fine and they should arrive with plenty of time to spare.

On those rare cases where there is a problem the interviewer is probably not going to be too sympathetic to excuses and the person who got up early and took into account all the possibilities will be more likely to get the job over the longrun.


Also...Calling these actions illegal or "stealing" isn't fair because these actions are very simply not illegal nor are they stealing except in your mind. Setting houses on fire is against the law and to compare the two is absurd IMO.

btw is it also unethical to lower your raising standards when you see the BB is disconnected at a full table? .

[cball86]

[ QUOTE ]
Curtains, just because you pay for fire insurance doesn't mean that you now have the right to set houses on fire just because all those other fools didn't take the precaution of getting fire insurance. I too have 3 internet connections. Having 3 internet connections prevents me from ever being in the situation where someone can take from me. It doesn't give me the right to steal from others. Get it? You're paying for insurance and security against dishonest people. (or, in my case, losing action at a limit table while DCed)

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horrible analogy, hes the one that sets the fire by not making sure everything has been checked before he leaves the house. its not my responsibility to put the fire out. i just watch it burn.

so if were in the first blind level of a tourney and i d/c for 15 min the table should stop playing and wait till i return?

its part of the game, everything in poker is about stealing. in a live game or online, if i leave the table the tourney does not go on hold just for me.

[CardSharpCook]

We've been through this discussion before in this forum. It is unethical, but like many unethical things, a lot of people still do it. Why? Well, as with any unethical thing you'll come up with whatever excuse your mind needs to allow you to do it with a realtively clear conscience. Cuz you're a good person, and you wouldn't do it if it was wrong. Its not your fault some idiot dropped his wallet. If he was smart, like you, he'd make sure he kept his wallet safe. He doesn't deserve the money like you do.

You are stealing, and unlike taking sugar pacekts from Denny's someone is getting hurt. The insurance analogy is valid, though I did take it too far by suggesting you were the one setting fires. Compare it to flood insurance then. Should all those devasted by Katrina who had no FI be screwed? Or should good people get together and do the right thing and help them out anyway?

Why is it you think you deserve to be able to win using this method? Do you really believe that your purchasing of more than one internet connection entitles you to a $2k (or whatever) windfall when someone DCs? Or do you believe this is when your "insurance" pays off. Your DC insurance ALREADY gains you a great deal over your competition in cash games and in tourney play because you never DC you already have a HUGE EV edge because of it. No need to steal in this situation which is morally ambigious at best and legal theft at worst.

I know, I know, every poker player feels that they have been screwed over in the past and so it is only fitting that they get to be the ones doing the screwing sometimes. It is the same feelings which cause us to call PF because we are pissed off that this guy cracked our aces 10 hands ago. Forget "deserve", forget "entitled", these concepts will only cause you pain.


Oh, and the full table comparison doesn't work. You can't have a single table stop while the other 100 tables keep playing. Additionally, it'd take a great deal of work to have zero effect on the other players (how many hands need to be folded to get back to having the blinds where they were? Is a player going to have a forced AI anyway? etc). Such courtesies cannot be extended because it is just too hard to do so. SH at an FT, it is possible, but it requires an agreement btwn all remaining players, so it is difficult as well, but doable. I have seen it proposed at a live FT when a player was penalized for his card falling off the table. Sadly, it was still 8-handed at the time, so there was no way it was happening.