Low limit stud says it's correct to complete the bring in....

[ceegee]

notice I said depending on the pot size. Which he emphasizes in later chapters that pot size is a very demanding factor.

[MikeBandy]

Ah. Thanks, Ceegee.

[Red_Diamond]

I'm pretty sure this idea comes from Chip's chapter in SSI.

[Andy B]

The guy who starts with a pair has something like a 16% chance to hit his set if he stays in until the river. One-pair hands can't handle a lot of pressure and are frequently folded before the end. Meanwhile, if you're rolled, you've got a 40% chance to improve yourself. The guy with one pair isn't that great of a threat. I'm a lot more worried about straight and flush draws.

As for taking your Jacks against open Queens, let's discuss a couple of possible scenarios. Let's say that the Queen raised third, and you called with Jacks because there was a Queen out and you like to gamble. The other guy now hits open Queens. If, as is typical of low-limit stud players, the other guy will only raise third street with big pairs, his possible distribution of hands might look something like this:

AA 6 ways
KK 6 ways
Qx 41 ways
JJ 1 way
TT 6 ways

So it's overwhelmingly likely that he has you crushed. You can't call with JJ in this spot, and it essentially doesn't matter how big the pot is.

Now say that you were the raiser with your Jacks and he called. He probably has something, and maybe it ain't much, but enough for him to call with. There's at least some chance he started with split Queens, and maybe he didn't raise because he didn't like the dead cards or maybe he's scared of his own shadow. Maybe he started with a pair in the hole, in which case you're drawing to two outs. If you have an over-card kicker, it's five outs, but he can still outdraw you. Here, you're not in good shape, and it is very unlikely that the pot will be big enough for you to stay with him. If the pot is big, what the hell are you doing in a big pot with a pair of Jacks in the first place?

Even if the guy "only" started with a three-flush, you're behind, and on balance, the pot isn't going to be big enough to justify look him up. If you never called when you were beaten on board, you wouldn't be far wrong. I make an exception if I have a strong draw and the other guy has an open pair but doesn't seem to be that much of a threat.

[ceegee]

I can see why you would fold on 4th if they have open queens. He is not saying go ahead and call with only a better kicker, most of the time you want to call if you have a drawing hand as well, IE. JsJcQc[Kc] and your flush and straight is live. I see no reason in folding to a bet faced against queens. Open queens I may call then check fold If I don't improve.

My argument is against Poker CPA on raising UTG with JJ[2] on a non threatening board.


"Even if the guy "only" started with a three-flush, you're behind, and on balance, the pot isn't going to be big enough to justify look him up."

7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 2s Jh 329827 65.97 170161 34.03 12 0.00 0.660
Qc Tc 5c 170161 34.03 329827 65.97 12 0.00 0.340

That is with 3 clubs dead.

[Andy B]

I'm talking a scenario where you started with Jacks, the other guy started with a three-flush, and he is now showing open Queens. You're not in great shape in this scenario, either.

[SCSTWG]

Good Advice!

[quote Skip it and get 7CS4AP.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ceegee]

The other book i got before I'm going to read 7CSFAP is the Winning 7-Card Stud: Transforming Home players into casino killers.
After that book I'll pick it up.

[Poker CPA]

Understand Zee's advice and you don't need a book, ANY BOOK.

[dsaxton]

Given the fact that the guy with open queens will likely make a double bet, combined with the possibility that you may be drawing dead, combined with the fact that you are absolutely certain you have the worst hand, I can't understand calling unless somehow the pot is enormous.