improving my WTSD

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 10 - calling the flop donk is probably the worst option there. I'd raise the flop and bet the turn and go from there. I see a lot of people donk bet low flops like this because they always put you on AK when you raise pre-flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you are saying here, but I'm not sure I agree with a flop raise, as there aren't a lot of hands I raise the flop HU in position. Villain will probably have seen me wait til the turn a few times with TPTK/overpair type hands, so might play back pretty hard on the turn if I raise flop. Or just 3b the flop, which puts me in a pretty tough spot even on this drawy board.

[yourface]

dont post as many hands, you get crappy discussion. don't you wish scary had looked at more of your hands?!?

1. I can fold riv here

2. I show down unless board gets really scary. board got scary, I can fold the river here.

3. call is good vs this guy imo

4. close. fold is fine

5. I don't see why everyone thinks this is a call. like every draw got there and villain doesn't raise very many 3x 6x hands. even if he does, most will check those behind on the river. I see a lot of villains with these ind of stats who will bluff everything without sd value, but most villains don't turn their pairs into bluffs.

6. I call down here. there are a lot of draws that just became available.

7. I can find a fold here, that turn card sucks.

8. WE HAVE A GUTSHOT

9. I bet the turn here.

10. ok

11. ok

12. ok

13. I c/f turn. maybe this is a c/c though, it's close.

14. fine imo.

15. I don't bluff the river.

[rzk]

thanks so much for great responses! i'd like to analyze my mistakes a little more to try to understand them conceptually. so let's forget about hand 8 - i just didn't see all of my outs there. also let's forget the terrible spewy bluff in hand 15. then, based on the comments, it seems the hands that i folded but possibly should have called are: 4,5,9,10, and 14. in this post, i will just collect the comments i got on these hands for easy reference (only those pertaining to call/fold decisions - though i certainly appreciated suggestions for other alternative plays). there's no reason to read them again unless you want an easy way to compare what different people thought. in the next post, i will summarize the comments and ask a couple of questions that will help me understand the decisions.

Hand 4. ATo

secretprankster: Looks fine, change his stats a bit and I at least peel, maybe calldown.

Oink: I never fold here.
- Villain is a moron
- When you raise and play aggro the passives sometimes play back with lesser holdings
- His VPIP/AF combo is actually not that passive
- But you dont really have enough hands to be sure about his aggression. You dont have reads?
Against a player that we know is aggressive that would be a pretty terrible fold.

sethypooh21: Looks fine. If villain is 1.7 AF you are probably calling down most boards here, maybe folding river UI.

stickdude: looks ok against a passive villain like that.

yourface: close. fold is fine



Hand 5. 77
secretprankster: I'd have to call the river vs. this dude.

Oink: LOL terrible! Dont fold the river. I would c/c. If he was more passive I would bet/fold.

BrassMonkey: I dunno - calling this seems like a major major waste over the long haul. I'd c/f this river every time, even against a LAG, and betting out makes no sense to me whatsoever. For me it's c/f >> c/c >>> b/f >>>> b/c, with b/c being a huge, silly spew.

vmacosta: What's not to get? The guy's a major lag and you beat all A-high hands, a bunch of pairs, and a few busted str8 draws--all hands he could easily take to the river with this line on this board. Of course you're a decent-size dog when you check and he bets, so I'd prefer betting myself.

sethypooh21: [censored] up river card. If villain is any more aggro, easy call. Any less, easy fold. Flip a coin.

Scary_Tiger: I can't read all the hands cause I'm lazy, but hand 5 is definitely a call.

yourface: I don't see why everyone thinks this is a call. like every draw got there and villain doesn't raise very many 3x 6x hands. even if he does, most will check those behind on the river. I see a lot of villains with these ind of stats who will bluff everything without sd value, but most villains don't turn their pairs into bluffs.


Hand 9. Q7o

secretprankster: Looks fine, he never folds. CR the turn next time it comes up.

Oink: I c/c
- You have outs
- You have SD value
- He will bet turn and check behind river sometimes
- He is calling any2 preflop and peeling his whole range on that flop. You eq is still good.

sethypooh21: B/C the turn. As played, for god's sake don't fold your 2overs + gutter in a bvb vs. aggro.

stickdude: I'd probably call the turn and re-evaluate on the river.


Hand 10. 44

secretprankster: Flop AF? I would probably just fold the flop here, even though it feels weak you're never in good shape and very often in horrible shape. River is an automuck given how it played out, consider raising turn for FSD but I would just give up earlier usually.

Oink: You have to call this one down IMO. But it surely helps with a read.

sethypooh21: Fine, though raising or folding turn are also acceptable.

yourface: ok

Hand 14. AJo

Oink: I am not folding. He has PPs, A high and a lot of straight draws. Since he looks really passive I would just bet/fold it and reevaluate river.

sethypooh21: Fine

yourface: fine imo.

[rzk]

thanks to all who gave their opinion, i'm learning a lot here and hoping other people will find this discussion useful too. you don't have to read my previous post unless you want an easy way to look at different people's opinions on the hands. once again, let's forget about hand 8 - i just didn't see all of my outs there. also let's forget the terrible spewy bluff in hand 15. then, based on the comments, it seems the hands that i might have folded incorrectly are: 4,5,9,10, and 14. if i can summarize the comments on these hands:

Hand 4. I folded. 3 people agree, 1 disagrees.
Hand 5. I folded. 2 people agree, 4 disagree, 1 flips a coin
Hand 9. I folded. 1 person agrees, 3 disagree.
Hand 10. I folded. 3 people agree, 1 disagrees
Hand 14. I folded. 2 people agree, 1 disagrees.

overall, i'm a bit puzzled how my WTSD could be only 30 if out of 750 hands I made a fold that the majority disagreed on only in 2 hands (5 and 9). plus i made a couple of calls that some people found debatable. perhaps besides those 15 hands above there are others, where i thought the decision to fold was more obvious but maybe it's not.

in any case, a couple of questions:

for hand 4 (ATo, board 63J), i thought the fold was superstandard. i remember a while ago i asked about what to do if i raise AJo, unknown bb calls and then donks a Q,rag,rag rainbow flop and got the advice to fold. Oink, you believe i must call - what am i missing?

for hand 5 (77, board 36T J K), with three cards in the playing zone and three clubs, does a player with AF=1.1 really call down after my 3-bet and then bets a river (instead of checking behind) with a 4th or 5th pair, A high, or a hand like 45 (which he probably would have limped with pf) 1 out of 6 times? my guess was that most people with these stats usually check behind a weak showdownable hand and only bet something like 45. what's the chance that he hasn't accidentally connected with so many cards in the playing zone after he raised pf? from watching stox's videos i got the impression that he routinely folds in similar situations with the words: "i have to give him credit for a hand". finally, what's most confusing to me is, if we call in this hand, why would we fold in hand 6 with only 2 overcards to our pair, lots of possible draws, and a more aggressive villain?

for hand 10 (44, board 593 J Q), Oink - you say to call down. but what does a passive villain bet 3 streets with? the flush draw connected on the river. i'm just as confused as in hand 5. is he really on a complete 3 barrell bluff 1 out of 6 times without having accidentally connected?

[yourface]

wtsd doesn't converge for a while
750 hands aint [censored]

[rzk]

my wtsd is 30 over 80k hands

[Oink]

What the hell about people folding in hand 5!?!?! I am chocked!

The guy is a LAG. He will call the flop and turn with A high, 66, 55, 44, 22, 98, 97, 87, 54, Q8, A6, A3. Ok so some of them needs to be discounted and the river is not good but I would never ever fold this hand in this spot against that guy. What the hell is up with the expert folds against LAG morons?!?!?

[vmacosta]

I usually call in 10 and 14.

Also, everybody knows to showdown AA it's what you do with Ajo UI that gives you 35 or 45 wtsd.

My wtsd is 43 and I really don't know how to play a poker style that would bring me lower than 40. You can prob win with 30 but almost all of the successful higher limit players have wtsd 38+ in my limited experience (perhaps some of the dataminers can verify?)

[Oink]

Limits really matter.

- Better players at higher limits will call you down more thinly.
- You have a lot more +EV call downs with marginal hands since the better players at higher limits will play more aggressive with draws.
- Because higher limit games are more aggressive you check more on the turn with SD'able hands and will get raised of your hand less.
- You play fewer multiway pots on higher limits. Your wtsd is obviously higher the shorter the pots are because folding is more often correct in protected pots.


A wtsd of 30 seems awfully low. But I doubt you need it much higher than 35 at low stakes. But obviously this depends on how the games play.

But remember that your wtsd depends just as much on how often your opponents call you down as how much you call down. If you play weak tight games you will never get a high wtsd

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell about people folding in hand 5!?!?! I am chocked!

The guy is a LAG. He will call the flop and turn with A high, 66, 55, 44, 22, 98, 97, 87, 54, Q8, A6, A3. Ok so some of them needs to be discounted and the river is not good but I would never ever fold this hand in this spot against that guy. What the hell is up with the expert folds against LAG morons?!?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even with his high VPIP, villain is not that laggy. Every draw in creation came in, and it's entirely possible villain is bluffing with the best hand.

I told OP to flip a coin, but I call here all day. But it's well established that I'm a SD monkey.