Small Stakes Hold'em (Skalnsky, Miller & co)

[Sir_Raisealot]

Guys keep in mind it is not that binary. Remember what DS said in Th.of Poker: Against loose players make your MADE HAND requirements looser, but tighten up on your bluffs. The other way around for tight games.

[DonBaron]

Thanks for all the interesting feedback and opinions.

As I mentioned before I play usually pretty tight/aggressive and at live tables. So coming at online tables where a guy raises you PF with as ex. 52s is very unusual for me... If I look now at the book DS explains that a low suited pocket card is very well playable on middle to late position.

He might be right, but one thing isn't said at this place; you get a very tough decision after the flop with cards like that. Per se, you've got pocket 9h/6h and the flop hits 9s/7d/3h... you've got top pair with no flush draw and just a small chance for straight.. and 2 outs for a set or quad...

Everybody would eventually raise at this point since slow playing may be very dangerous (overcards to come on turn or river)...

What I wanna say it that the decision to take is much tougher than if you would have played QTs. With low cards (suited) you might get commited to a pot that isn't worth playing... especially not when there are 3-6 other players involved...

From my point of view, Poker is mostly avoiding tough decisions that can cost a lot, so I'm still not sure that DS is right to recommend playing hands like that.

[Lethe]

Don, I think you really need to re-read the book. Based on your post I think it's pretty clear that you're misunderstanding, or skimmed through a lot of really important concepts.

[DonBaron]

I would love to believe that you're right. But no I read the book carefully and even (beneath other things) wrote his points in a seperate Excel sheet...

What from your point of view have I missed?

[DonBaron]

I think you hit the point here. It is a book for beginners and def not for online poker. I thought it would address strategies for a wider range of skilled players but it doesn't.

I'll though have a look at the book you were mentioning. Thanks for the hint

[Lethe]

While SSHE is becoming less of the "Bible" for low limit holdem that it used to be for online games, it is still very relevant. The only reason for this is that online games have become much tougher and more aggressive.

Your comment on the 96h hand seems slightly concerning. Of course your hand is extremely vulnerable here, and if you don't feel comfortable in these situations then by all means fold. This is one of the reasons I hate starting hand charts ... while they are a good starting point, it's very player/skill dependent. Certainly, if you don't want to be in those spots then you should fold preflop.

If you didn't find SSHE to your liking for online games, give HPFAP a shot. I haven't read Stoxtrader's book yet but have heard good things. Personally, I still find myself poking through SSHE every now and then (usually when I'm running bad) and finding something that I needed to reiterate to myself, or some little gem about things I had stopped doing or should be doing more.

I do play mostly live games though these days, but to say that SSHE is only a book for beginner's and "def not for online poker" is just wrong. Read all the books though and I'm sure they'll all help you to some extent.

Good luck.

[DonBaron]

Hi Lethe

I'm playing now since over 7 years at live tables and I'm making a good living at it. I read till now tens (or should I say tons) of books. It goes without saying that without all these books I wouldn't have become as good as I modestly think I am (with all my weaknesses of course). You're also right when you say that they all help to a certain extend... But that's not the point here...

Where you mark the point - and we share the same opinion - is when you say that you hate starting hand charts... so do I! But like every novice we started one day looking at those charts and tried them out at the table until we found our own and rewarding way to play. But that's exactly where I've got problems with; of course I can fold this hand PF (what I also do) but since I'm trying to adapt my way to completely new game styles like online low stakes, I need to start somewhere. Where else should I start if not with charts or explainations like that?

Now I might be skilled or experienced enough to realize that this way of playing may not be rewarding (at least for me), but a total novice wont be capable of recognizing that. And that's where I find the SSHE chart / book very dangerous, because it might mislead them...

Books from Harrington as example teaches you in a much "saver" way how to play poker (even if mainly focussed on tournaments though).

Anyway I wont stretch the discussion indefinitely because I think that it's always and also a question of taste and playing style. The one method might suit the one and not the other... that's poker!

Hoping that SSHE helps you more than it harms you, I wish you good luck and good games

[OziBattler]

Don, seems to me that you are reading SSHE and reading the replies you are getting in this thread but not really understanding them fully, either that or you are not prepared to accept the advice yet because it isnt comfortable and contradicts with what you think and your experiences to date.

If you cant beat the low limits online playing something like what SSHE says then you arent playing right. I should know, I missapplied SSHE for ages before 'getting it'.

Poker is situational. Good players can read a book like SSHE or HEFAP and work out when to deviate from the advice in such books. If you cant do that then you arent as good as you think you are. The same players probably wore the covers of said books. Dont throw the baby out with teh bath water just because you dont like the advice for, say, low suited connectors. The postflop stuff in that book is really good altough if misaplied can lead you down the merry path to spewmonkeyville.

You probably SHOULDNT play a hand such as a low suited connector every time just because a chart says so....the charts make certain assumptions about the game types that often dont apply. Im not even going to try and expand on this further in this post.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway I wont stretch the discussion indefinitely because I think that it's always and also a question of taste and playing style. The one method might suit the one and not the other... that's poker!

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE is a staple for low limits against online poker. No offence intended but just cos you cant win after reading it doesnt make it not applicable.

Don, do you think live poker is tougher than online poker?What limits are you currently playing online? If you cant beat them what makes you think youll beat 10/20 online? online limits dont really compare to the same live limits

anyway, goodluck with whatever you do

[MandM_WSU]

[ QUOTE ]
He might be right, but one thing isn't said at this place; you get a very tough decision after the flop with cards like that. Per se, you've got pocket 9h/6h and the flop hits 9s/7d/3h... you've got top pair with no flush draw and just a small chance for straight.. and 2 outs for a set or quad...

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that SSHE advises that you fold in situations like this.

IMO, it has really helped my game, especially live. SSHE is <u>not</u> for new players. They assume you already know how to play... the tactics help you improve your expected value in a variety of situations.

[DonBaron]

- AussieBattler: I do read the postings very well, the point is that I don't see much of an advice in them... Although I read much more opinions and that is what I asked for initially... I'm not wanting to make a discussion about which strategy is best, enough postings in this forum cover this subject and it never comes to an end since (as I said before) everyone plays as it suits him...

But one thing I noticed, I said that I'm coming from a long term experience at live tables and that I try to find my way through online tables... almost everything what has been posted shows me that the people out there use this book as a guideline for live tables... That was never my point, I know how to play live...

MandM: You're generally right when you say it's not for new players. By saying novice or beginner I meant someone that knows how to play but just looks out to improve his play by learning how to play strategicaly.. But even then, why does DS explain the "principles" of odds if it's meant for someone with some kind of experience?

Anyway, I just find that DS wrote much better books than this one. Which by the way helped me improving my game since I started. Some of his books are still helping me till today and I love to open them again and I even think that I still learn re-reading them...