27$ - QQ makes a set early, flush possible on turn

[Webster]

Are you advocating to push flop?
We flopped a real monster here.

Here is the thing - the blinds are still low and winning a monster at this stage is not that big of a deal - great - you go from 1400 chips to 3000 - it helps but not as much as you think - While it will double your chips your actual table equity gets spread out among other players.

Being chip leader at this point is basically meaningless. There is a long long game ahead of you. At this point it's still a marathon and you are trying to sprint to the lead.

I believe one of the biggest problems people make in SNGs is thinking a lot of chips is meaningful early in a SNG. How many times have you had the lead but by the time the 50/100 blinds arrive there are still 5 people and you are even with them.

You sit there and say - what happened????

I see that flop and all I see is my set becoming a 4 flush nightmare and BAM - I'm gone early. Chips have very little value at this stage.

HOWEVER - I would bet the turn. You have to make him pay for his flush.

IMHO

[KCW12]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you advocating to push flop?
We flopped a real monster here.

Here is the thing - the blinds are still low and winning a monster at this stage is not that big of a deal - great - you go from 1400 chips to 3000 - it helps but not as much as you think - While it will double your chips your actual table equity gets spread out among other players.

Being chip leader at this point is basically meaningless. There is a long long game ahead of you. At this point it's still a marathon and you are trying to sprint to the lead.

I believe one of the biggest problems people make in SNGs is thinking a lot of chips is meaningful early in a SNG. How many times have you had the lead but by the time the 50/100 blinds arrive there are still 5 people and you are even with them.

You sit there and say - what happened????

I see that flop and all I see is my set becoming a 4 flush nightmare and BAM - I'm gone early. Chips have very little value at this stage.

HOWEVER - I would bet the turn. You have to make him pay for his flush.

IMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

With a hand this strong, I'm trying to get all my chips in every time. Even if villain has a flush, we have several outs to a full house. Doubling up early in a SNG is a bigger advantage than you are making it out to be. I would much rather have "the lead but by the time the 50/100 blinds arrive there are still 5 people and you are even with them" than to not have the lead and end up short stacked in the same situation. Now this doesn't mean you take unnecessary risks to try to double up early, but in a situation where you have a huge hand and there are very few likely holdings that beat you, I think it is worth the risk.

[Guthrie]

SB has two crummy little clubs. Since he called the raise PF, there's pretty much no bet that will make him fold the flop. He made his flush on the turn, but he's afraid you made a bigger one, so he checked. On the river, he's still afraid of a bigger flush, so he cautiously made a small bet. If you'd raised, his fear would have suddenly vanished, and he would have pushed. Either way, you were dead when two clubs came on the flop.

[Jauron]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you advocating to push flop?
We flopped a real monster here.

Here is the thing - the blinds are still low and winning a monster at this stage is not that big of a deal - great - you go from 1400 chips to 3000 - it helps but not as much as you think - While it will double your chips your actual table equity gets spread out among other players.

Being chip leader at this point is basically meaningless. There is a long long game ahead of you. At this point it's still a marathon and you are trying to sprint to the lead.

I believe one of the biggest problems people make in SNGs is thinking a lot of chips is meaningful early in a SNG. How many times have you had the lead but by the time the 50/100 blinds arrive there are still 5 people and you are even with them.

You sit there and say - what happened????

I see that flop and all I see is my set becoming a 4 flush nightmare and BAM - I'm gone early. Chips have very little value at this stage.

HOWEVER - I would bet the turn. You have to make him pay for his flush.

IMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I don't get the mindset that we have a set and don't want action. I'd push if I thought he'd call me with a flush draw but you seem to want to go beyond giving bad odds with the draw to outright denying him one.

If a double up won't do much for us what will the pot on the flop?

I agree an early double up doesn't mean a lot, but how many time are we gonna flop a monster? Extracting chips while also giving poor odds to draw should be what we are doing.

Maybe I'm missing something else?

[Xanthro]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you advocating to push flop?
We flopped a real monster here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd push for a number of reasons.
1) We aren't likely to get a large number of chips without seeing something scary. Which is what happened, our flop bet got us $210 big deal. Assuming he didn't turn the flush.
2) If I get called, in an STT I want to be ahead and win a large amount to risk losing part of my stack early. Keeping fold equity is more important than accumulating chips.
3) I want to set the image that you can't play cheaply against me. I don't want people sucking out on me, I want them to fold.

Look at exactly what happened here. A $210 bet, and a possible flush completed. Now, you HAVE to bet the turn, because it's far more likely he has a draw than a completed flush, but a standard bet really hurts your stack if you lose, and what do you do if he pushes over? Not betting gives him the free river to complete a flush.

If you don't want the $210 called, then just push.

[sippin_criss]

lolz @ flop push, be real with yourself you guys. you dont have to be so constantly afraid of getting sucked out on, play some poker and deal with getting it in without the nuts, or laying down a big hand. as played turn can go either way i think, and there isnt much value in raising the river so flats fine.

[Xanthro]

[ QUOTE ]
lolz @ flop push, be real with yourself you guys. you dont have to be so constantly afraid of getting sucked out on, play some poker and deal with getting it in without the nuts, or laying down a big hand. as played turn can go either way i think, and there isnt much value in raising the river so flats fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a question of being afraid of playing poker, it's that by playing standard here as if it were a cash game, the gain by winning some additional chips isn't worth the risk to your stack.

As it played out, those extra $420 in chips don't help you all that much. It's a blind later in the game.

When I push here and get called, I've gotten it in with the nuts, and if the hand holds up I've greatly increased my stack. As opposed to risking later fold equity so I can gain a blind.

Plus, pushing helps my image later when I'm pushing all the time. I want people to know I'll push the nuts.

[vers]

What would ever call a push on this flop. This isn't a $1 sng. You want a hand like 99/Qx, etc to call a flop bet where they might not necessarily a shove. Try to extract value out of one of the best flops you can hope for. Pushing is horrible.

[Xanthro]

[ QUOTE ]
What would ever call a push on this flop. This isn't a $1 sng. You want a hand like 99/Qx, etc to call a flop bet where they might not necessarily a shove. Try to extract value out of one of the best flops you can hope for. Pushing is horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

What value is there to exact? That's the problem. Everyone assumes there is something to be gained by adding a couple of hundred more chips to you stack at this early stage. It's not worth the risk.

It's not a cash game, or a MTT. It's a STT and very early. The goal here is to protect your stack, not gain a blind or two of later level play.

[sence25]

My goal is to make +ev plays.