Getting Max value on flopped set, FT 2/4?

[QuietEarner]

Thanks oink for berrating me. Obviously I'm trying to learn that's why I posted the hand. Obviously I know I butchered it, atleast know I misplayed it or I wouldn't have posted it. All the BS you added in your post turned a post with good advice into a post showing the nicer side of your personality. This isn't BBV, it's a strategy forum, I'm here to learn.

[mvoss]

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for not raising the flop was to keep everyone in calling. Like I said there was one reasonable player in the hand and 2 calling stations that weren't letting a pair go, ie pocket 22's on up, for one bet but probably for 2 bets they would fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is some of the worst reasoning I've seen in this forum in a very long time, you're missing a ton of value by not raising here and you're letting people draw cheaply to their longshots. Keep raising, the calling stations will call.

[Wolfram]

Quiet,

oink might have been a bit harsh, but he's doing it for your benefit. Getting a light (but justified) berating hammers the point home much better than a gloves-on treatment does. And it isn't meant to be mean-spirited.

Getting criticized is never fun, but you need to develop a thicker skin when you start out posting. You also need a little humility because these guys are giving out gold in the form of free advice and Oink is probably one of the best active SSSH posters around. If we were all stockbrokers then we'd have to pay thousands of dollars for the equivalent advice regarding stocks/investment, don't forget that.

I think this is especially funny because I remember reacting exactly the same way the first time I posted a badly played hand and got a similar treatment. We come in here looking for acceptance from "the cool kids" and then they diss us. It feels horrible, but you'll get used to it, and you'll get better and eventually you'll become one of the cool kids.

[QuietEarner]

I get what you're saying wolf, I just thought the berratings were saved for BBV. Maybe I should have thrown a line in there about appreciating the good advice but not understanding the berrating. I guess I should have expected it with such a butchered hand.

Guess it's the same as a coach yelling at a QB for throwing to that wide open LB.

[Oink]

I was out of line in the first post. Sorry.


[ QUOTE ]
As for the range for BB it is much smaller than AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, TT, 99. His range is AA, KK, QQ, AKs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, if you knew for sure that this is his range you should have stated in the OP.

That said, there is now way in hell you can know this after 160 hands.

Taking AK, AQ, AJs, TT, 99 and 88 out of his range after 160 is impossible unless you have ninja reads.

You have to accept that the variance in poker can mean that this guy is actually a 30/20 LAGTAG who has been on a bad run of cards in the hands you have played with him.

Your stat read only makes it less likely he has 99, it doesnt make it impossible.


The most important thing you need to learn here is the flop play and also the turn play.

Your argument for calling is that you want to keep the third guy in.

- If he is going to call 2 bets then it didnt keep him in that you just called. This is going to happen with non-zero probability.

- If BB is going to jam the flop - which is quite likley if he has QQ+, AKs - then you are trying to keep the third guy in paying 1 bet while you are missing out on 3 from the BB when he has QQ+.

- When BB is going to jam and the third guy doesnt fold you will win 8 small bets on the flop and 4 big bets on the turn. Your line won 2 of each.


EDIT: I FORGOT THIS

You also want the third guy to fold quite a lot of hands. It would be ok for you to fold any gutshot and backdoor flush draw. You want him to fold 76 or K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and a bunch of other hands.

I hate one liners but here is one

In big pots your first priority is to win the pot, i.e get folds. In small pots your first priority is to get bets in the pot.



Turn

Even if we stick to your claim tat he has AKs, QQ+ you are still way ahead on the turn. There is 4 ways he can have AKs but he is prolly going to fold if you raise. There is 3 ways he can have QQ and 12 ways he can have KK and AA.

You need to jam to get value from AA and KK. Since you underrepresented your hand it is even possible that he will 3 bet those hands in which case you can get 4 bets in on the turn.


Your play prolly cost you between 2 and 4 Big bets. With a winrate of 1BB/100 you need to play between 200 and 400 hands to make up for that. It is quite a significant mistake.

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning for not raising the flop was to keep everyone in calling. Like I said there was one reasonable player in the hand and 2 calling stations that weren't letting a pair go, ie pocket 22's on up, for one bet but probably for 2 bets they would fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

You should only apply this reasoning selectively. There are a few cases where you might go for overcalls. For example, when you're up against a good aggressive player who is betting and you aren't sure about your hand or you think you probably tie him (for example, there's a 4 card straight on the board ) In those cases you can call to encourage others to stay in the pot. It's rarely correct to slowplay a strong hand like this in the hopes of overcalls. Generally, you want to raise and hope they chase or don't believe you, especially at these levels.

[mvoss]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks oink for berrating me. Obviously I'm trying to learn that's why I posted the hand. Obviously I know I butchered it, atleast know I misplayed it or I wouldn't have posted it. All the BS you added in your post turned a post with good advice into a post showing the nicer side of your personality. This isn't BBV, it's a strategy forum, I'm here to learn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey if you don't like the way Oink posts you can always add him to you're ignore list. He's an [censored], but he's giving out some very good advice so what do you prefer, having an [censored] help you or to get no help. As Wolfram said there's a reason a lot of posters post somewhat harshly and it's not that they don't like you, it's that they don't like your play or your reasoning for making said play. Of course the [censored] could have posted something like: "Well imho you should have raised somewhere in this hand, I'm pretty sure that would be best since you have the nuts" but I feel confident that you'll remember the [censored]'s advice better the way he wrote it.
<font color="white">And [censored] FC Copenhagen BTW!!!!</font>

[Wolfram]

I know you guys hate maxims cause "it depends" but...

If you never slowplay the nuts in lhe you won't be leaving much money at the table.

[QuietEarner]

Thanks oink, by far the best explanation of all my missed bets. I'm only ~20k hands into LHE and obviously have a long way to go. I think this type play is part of the reason my agressive factor hovers around 1.6.

[danzasmack]

QE,

Like i said - just remember all the pots you got drawn out on next time you don't want to jam early.