Q8s in BB

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you may be reading more into the OPs read than I did...

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I'm going off exactly what he told us, and he told us a lot; I didn't read anything into anything (the implication of your statement being that I somehow expanded Hero's words to support my advice). His read was, "I've seen him do THIS with these two cards and THIS with these two cards," not, "PT has him at 55/8/6 after 14 hands so I figure his range is this." That's a strong read, and I think we have to give it credence, since if he's going to gather information like that while at the table he needs to be able to use it.

That said, I've seen plenty of instances where a poster gives us a "solid" read in his OP and then backs off it later when pressed. If that happens, I'm the first to jump down his throat for making up reads to support his actions, but that hasn't happened in this thread...yet. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok,
vs TT
Need to improve to two pair or better so 3 Q's and 2 8's make 5 outs. At the point of the 3-bet we are getting 17-1 on the call with odds of 8.2 to 1 so it's an easy call. On the turn we're getting 11 to 1 pot odds so it's another call. Pretty interesting...

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Well handled.

Now, tho, let's expand on the question. Villan ACCIDENTALLY shows you TT BEFORE you call his three-bet (for the sake of argument, it's a live game and you said "F**K" but he thought you said "muck" and he turned his cards up as he reached for the pot that the dealer tells him he's not allowed to have). He knows you've seen his hand. Do you call? If you called, what's your line when the ace falls? Does your line change if he's a thinking player instead of a maniac?

[Stoo_Pot]

If he's a thinking player I suppose if you call the 3-bet on the flop, you're admitting that you're behind and are drawing, but a raise on the flop probably won't scare him off because he won't have put us on a pair higher than his, and if we had a set we might not play it like this.
I might call and try a bluff check raise or donk bet on the ace. I think I prefer a check raise though. I imagine that after this 'incident' however he might be steaming and call me down anyway.

Against the maniac I don't think he'll fold whatever I do so I'd call flop and turn and fold river UI

[threads13]

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Against a solid player, I would probably have just called the flop bet, receiving good odds to improve.

However, as you considered the flop better to be a maniac, 3-betting the flop to try to isolate him seems fine.

Once you were heads up, I also would have called down unimproved as your hand was not terribly strong but could have been good enough to beat the maniac.

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I like this! Also, considering the odds the pot is laying you, you have to stay with this one until then end.

On a side note, if he is a maniac it is often good to apply a check/call strategy because it can induce him to bluff even more incorrectly.

[MacGuyV]

Looks good. I may cap the flop.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you may be reading more into the OPs read than I did...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going off exactly what he told us, and he told us a lot; I didn't read anything into anything (the implication of your statement being that I somehow expanded Hero's words to support my advice). His read was, "I've seen him do THIS with these two cards and THIS with these two cards," not, "PT has him at 55/8/6 after 14 hands so I figure his range is this." That's a strong read, and I think we have to give it credence, since if he's going to gather information like that while at the table he needs to be able to use it.

That said, I've seen plenty of instances where a poster gives us a "solid" read in his OP and then backs off it later when pressed. If that happens, I'm the first to jump down his throat for making up reads to support his actions, but that hasn't happened in this thread...yet. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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He told us villian limped with J9o then capped a 3-bet back to him. Loose without knowing the context. Then he is aggressive with 2nd pair and an gutshot, after he capped I'm assuming. Certainly not standard but not as if he capped with 72o and capped it ui trying to get everyone to fold.

[Stoo_Pot]

Just to clarify, it was middle pair and a gutshot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[The.Accountant]

*Grunch*

If the PFR is TAP, you may consider folding PF. I'm not sure if this changes when lots of loose players have called the raise.

After the A falls on the turn and MP3 bets, you can call here assuming you have 5 outs, but I fold on the river.

[Stoo_Pot]

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Qs 8s (one pair, eights).
MP3 has 7s 8c (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 14 BB. </font>

I was reading one of Ed Miller's posts about being more aggressive in big pots which is partly why I played it this way (at least on the flop). I was pretty pleased I had folded the pf raiser when the ace came because it's fairly likely that he had one.
Didn't want to be results oriented and pat myself on the back for a possible bad play so that's why I posted here. Thanks for the help so far [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[bozlax]

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If he's a thinking player I suppose if you call the 3-bet on the flop, you're admitting that you're behind and are drawing, but a raise on the flop probably won't scare him off because he won't have put us on a pair higher than his, and if we had a set we might not play it like this.
I might call and try a bluff check raise or donk bet on the ace. I think I prefer a check raise though. I imagine that after this 'incident' however he might be steaming and call me down anyway.

Against the maniac I don't think he'll fold whatever I do so I'd call flop and turn and fold river UI

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Think about this: he knows you know what he has. How can he possibly call another bet from you?