Let's talk dice control

[SheetWise]

Here's a Link. I'm not flatly stating that it's all hogwash -- but to me it seems highly unlikely, and it does follow a pattern of well known and documented gambling fallacies. There is also a phenomenon known as "anchoring", in which data is skewed because the person making a claim feels justified in selecting the starting point (or moving it), or dismissing some data samples. These could be rationalized by dice setters as "This data doesn't count because ..."

1) I was drinking during that session.
2) I was just learning at that time.
3) I hadn't perfected my style yet.
4) That was on a red felt table.
5) I was being watched and was uncomfortable.
6) ...

There are any number of reasons for a player to discount sessions that disagree with his beliefs (psychological probability) -- the problem is, none of those reasons will ever be found when the outcome agrees with his beliefs.

From report --

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24. Assessment of probability of winning (psychological probability) differs from the mathematical probability. At low probabilities it is higher than the mathematical probability and at moderate and high probabilities, it is lower. This occurs however well informed the person taking part in gambling is.

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27. Skill is usually overrated and often implies an unrealistic ability to control the uncertain event that is the subject of the gamble.

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[Double Down]

Not gonna get into this again, whenever someone gets curious about dice control and posts a query it gets shot down by people, who yes are well intentioned but don't really have any experience with this. Their reasoning is that it doesn't "seem" like it should work, and assume that a dice controller's results MUST be somehow skewed, assuming that it's selective memory.
I took a seminar for a weekend on dice control and the results were amazing. No, 25 hours of shooting craps isn't enough time to prove or disprove it. Some slightly harder evidence perhaps is that in Sharpshooter's book, he has recorded thousands upon thousands of rolls, and he showed a big advantage. His results fell beyond three standard deviations.
So unless he was lying about his results, it should be something to be looked at.

Also, the gentelemen who ran our seminar do this for a living.

No, no one has ever been barred, mainly because casinos still aren't sure about whether or not dice control is for real. But when they see you setting and taking your sweet time throwing, they do know what's up, and will ask you to throw the dice quicker.
But just as part of card counting is learning to do it with ease, eventually you should be able to set the dice quickly and throw them without it looking out of the ordinary.

The seminar is called Heavy's Axis Craps or something like that. No, I'm not getting paid by them or anything. If you have any other questions, PM me.

[SheetWise]

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Also, the gentelemen who ran our seminar do this for a living.

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Now that I believe.

[Biloxi]

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Heavy's Axis Craps

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He was in my area a while back and people actually paid to attend lol. You post as if you want more ppl to do the same. hmmmm how much was it??
Anyway, if it works you should not be spreading the word and getting more and more ppl involved unless you stand to benefit. THINK about it!
For starters dice must stay "glued" together throughout their flight and land in EXACTLY the right place EVERY throw. You beginners try to accomplish one of these let alone both on just one throw and you shall see the ray of hope you have. GL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Double Down]

"Anyway, if it works you should not be spreading the word and getting more and more ppl involved unless you stand to benefit. THINK about it!"

This forum exists so that gamblers can share knowledge and advice. With what you're suggesting, we should also shut our mouths on the subjects of card counting, poker, and pretty much EVERYTHING discussed on this forum.

"For starters dice must stay "glued" together throughout their flight and land in EXACTLY the right place EVERY throw. "


Completely incorrect. The idea is to keep them from spinning outward or inward, so that the odds are higher for one of the 4 sides on each die will appear, and reduce the chances that the 2 sides facing inward and outward will appear. They don't have to land in exactly the same place. One can bounce off the end of the table and land a couple inches away while the other one hits and then rolls a few feet. As long as they don't rotate inward or outward, then there are only 16 possible combos and not 36. And based on how they are set, this will increase or decrease the chances of certain combos appearing, resulting in an exploitable edge. It's a small edge, it's not so much controlling the dice as it is influencing the dice, but an edge nonetheless.
It is achievable.

[SamIAm]

I am pretty surprised by all the negativity. I'm eager to hear what DoubleDown has to say about dice-setting (e.g. the spin description was interesting). Any more descriptions would be great. Do all dice controllers physically throw the same way? Is the goal always to try to hit craps on the first toss, or is it to avoid craps on future tosses?

Maybe Biloxi was bitten by a dice controller when he was a little boy, and he's been scared of them ever since.
-Sam

[SamIAm]

Wow. I read the Wizard's page again.

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in May 2004 Stanford Wong, whom I have enormous respect for, attended a 4-day seminar on dice setting and as a result reversed his position and gave what I think could be said is an endorsement. ... He obviously did believe that some people can influence the dice but that is was very difficult and something few have mastered.

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I kinda tend to believe anything and everything Stanford Wong says. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] At the bottom of the page, Wong participates in a bet with some of the members of his (for-pay) blackjack forum, where Wong is actually throwing! Stanford Wong won the bet, too!

I'm definitely intrigued.
-Sam

edit: The page linked in the article looks a little corrupt. I understand they're trying to sell lessons, but this "testimonial" is a little much.
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I was/am a fairly conventional dice thrower. On the other hand, because of a permanently dislocated elbow, Karen was/is a different matter all together. You worked with her and came up with a toss she is comfortable with and, believe me, very good at.

[/ QUOTE ]We're to believe that both he and his dislocated wife learned dice control? Seems like a stretch. ("Conventional dice thrower" means "gambler", right? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Biloxi]

dice control is a physical skill. Total opposite of card counting and poker. Casinos dont know what you are thinking, but they can clearly see what you are doing (and yes, we are watching!)

Even the best shooters Ive ever seen do not keep it on axis after contact consistently. when they hit the numbers they are going for, if you watch carefully you will notice the numbers on each die are frequently from the side of the set and really not the preferred outcome. And the mystery miracle shooter says his dice never seperate through flight and always hit the "sweet spot" of the table. With the techno world of today why are there no videos of these lights out shooters in action? Practice videos would be suffice. Thats a good idea perhaps I should make them and sell them for outrageous costs.

I wish I were bitten as a child, maybe then I would not have been lured into the world of dice, cards, drugs, sex, and alcohol.

kinda made that last part up
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

tip of the day: Keep flight path perpendickular with flat end of table. So all you lil armed shorties go to the faaarrr end or da hook. GL any "shooters" in the area, give me a shout

[MCS]

Double Down already pointed this out as well, but it's important to realize that you don't have to be able to throw a specific number on command. You just have to be able to steer towards or away from one number a little bit. The house edge isn't like 75%.

I think precision shooting is probably possible with sufficient practice, but I also think that many people who believe they can do it are wrong.

[SamIAm]

Right. I've seen tons of gamblers flocking to the single-deck blackjack games, because "That's the easiest game to count. You can't count those 6-deck games." But they don't know how to count; they don't even know basic strategy.

I'm sure Biloxi's seen TONS of guys trying to throw like the pros, and those guys are probably idiots. That doesn't mean the ability can't exist, or even that the classes are a total rip-off. DoubleDown, I'd like to hear a more detailed Trip Report from your seminar.
-Sam