Live 40/80 hand

[3rdCheckRaise]

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Against Yong Jo, you are almost 100% beat here. He occasionally calls this down with Ace high but only if you have been playing really out of line. And if you bet the river you are getting called, even though it is semi scary for a hand like QQ or JJ. His raising range in early position is pretty tight and he likes to limp with a lot of very raiseable hands. So all this rambling I am pretty much saying that I would probably muck 88 here preflop.

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Yeah, right...The tighter the table is playing the wider Joes range of UTG raises and 88 will play just fine against that range. With that said betting the river has no value whatsoever since he will not pay off anything you can beat. Check and hope he bluffs something you can beat.

[UMTerp]

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[ QUOTE ]
Against Yong Jo, you are almost 100% beat here. He occasionally calls this down with Ace high but only if you have been playing really out of line. And if you bet the river you are getting called, even though it is semi scary for a hand like QQ or JJ. His raising range in early position is pretty tight and he likes to limp with a lot of very raiseable hands. So all this rambling I am pretty much saying that I would probably muck 88 here preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, right...The tighter the table is playing the wider Joes range of UTG raises and 88 will play just fine against that range. With that said betting the river has no value whatsoever since he will not pay off anything you can beat. Check and hope he bluffs something you can beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I could see him paying off with AQ/66/55 if he thinks OP can get out of line. I can't imagine him raising the river ever though.

[drbk2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Against Yong Jo, you are almost 100% beat here. He occasionally calls this down with Ace high but only if you have been playing really out of line. And if you bet the river you are getting called, even though it is semi scary for a hand like QQ or JJ. His raising range in early position is pretty tight and he likes to limp with a lot of very raiseable hands. So all this rambling I am pretty much saying that I would probably muck 88 here preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, right...The tighter the table is playing the wider Joes range of UTG raises and 88 will play just fine against that range. With that said betting the river has no value whatsoever since he will not pay off anything you can beat. Check and hope he bluffs something you can beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played with Yong Jo for about 3 years now (not including his 1 year hiatus while propping online). He's a friend of mine so I would never share any secrets about his game just as I would never share any of yours, but seriously now, what hand would he bluff the river with? He's probably checking behind with any hand that has any type of showdown value, and not calling the turn with any hand that does not have any showdown value. I think betting the river is way better here, with check folding a good second option.

[amulet]

preflop i don't like the call. let's say he raises utg with aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, ak, aq, range may be wider, but for now let's just use those. therefore, 30 times he has a bigger pair, 32 times 2 big cards that hit the flop about 1/3 of the time. playing 88 is playing a hand with neg ev here.

postflop, in addition to aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, ak, aq, let add 99, kq, aj. now when the K hits you are even a bigger dog.
however, you checked and he checked. what type of good player checks heads up when he raised from early position vs a single opponent? i need to know more about this guy. if i raised with anything i lead, especially on this flop. too often your opponent folds when you bet. is he slowplaying KK? as played and without a read i would check and cal the riverl. i assume that you were in one of the blinds?

[drbk2]

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preflop i don't like the call. let's say he raises utg with aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, ak, aq, range may be wider, but for now let's just use those. therefore, 30 times he has a bigger pair, 32 times 2 big cards that hit the flop about 1/3 of the time. playing 88 is playing a hand with neg ev here.

postflop, in addition to aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, ak, aq, let add 99, kq, aj. now when the K hits you are even a bigger dog.
however, you checked and he checked. what type of good player checks heads up when he raised from early position vs a single opponent? i need to know more about this guy. if i raised with anything i lead, especially on this flop. too often your opponent folds when you bet. is he slowplaying KK? as played and without a read i would check and cal the riverl. i assume that you were in one of the blinds?

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Yes slowplaying KK is possible, but not likely. Let's say you raise QQ UTG, everyone folds, and a good capable opponent is your lone caller from the big blind. Flop is K rag rag rainbow. How would you maximize this hand? How would you lose the least whlie seeing a showdown if you think your opponent is capable of trying to outplay you?

[amulet]

i think you must lead. if he "is trying to out play you", in limit this is a scary flop for him to make a move out of position.

i can't imagine not betting, qq, jj, tt, 99, aq, aj, etc. here. aggression wins too often. heads up i bet if i raised. i am not worried about losing the least, nor maximizing my return if i have QQ in a raised pot. i want to take it down now, therefore i bet, that gives me the best chance to win now or know that i am likely beat.

if utg slowplayed aa or kk he is not a good player.

[drbk2]

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i think you must lead. if he "is trying to out play you", in limit this is a scary flop for him to make a move out of position.

i can't imagine not betting, qq, jj, tt, 99, aq, aj, etc. here. aggression wins too often. heads up i bet if i raised. i am not worried about losing the least, nor maximizing my return if i have QQ in a raised pot. i want to take it down now, therefore i bet, that gives me the best chance to win now or know that i am likely beat.

if utg slowplayed aa or kk he is not a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is this a scary flop for either player? I define a scary flop as a flop that has a lot of possibilities where you have a hand that can be way behind, way ahead, slightly ahead or slightly behind. Also, I'm not saying I would play any hand like this from UTG, but my image is much different from UTG's so I understand what I think he is trying to accomplish.

And I think making a generalization as you did claiming that slowplaying AA or KK here makes you a bad player is very ignorant. Poker is about maximizing wins and minimizing losses, so to say that you don't care about either is also very ignorant.

[blindside]

when he calls the turn you're beat....

check/fold river.. he'll check behind some better hands also but if he calls you're toast...

[amulet]

drb,

since you want to insult me by telling me that I am ignorant, let me explain what you didn't understand. It is a scary flop, because the K completes a lot of the hands an UTG would raise with.

as for slowplaying KK or AA, in general it is bad poker. you lose value in too many situations. of course there are times to do it, however, too often it is a mistake and bad poker. it is overused and causes people to miss bets.

Don't insult people here, if you disagree then be constructive.

[drbk2]

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drb,

since you want to insult me by telling me that I am ignorant, let me explain what you didn't understand. It is a scary flop, because the K completes a lot of the hands an UTG would raise with.

as for slowplaying KK or AA, in general it is bad poker. you lose value in too many situations. of course there are times to do it, however, too often it is a mistake and bad poker. it is overused and causes people to miss bets.

Don't insult people here, if you disagree then be constructive.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah you're right, I had NOOO idea that a king on the flop would complete a lot of UTG raising ranges by many players. Obviously you have no idea what I'm saying so forget it.

"as for slowplaying KK or AA, in general it is bad poker. you lose value in too many situations. of course there are times to do it"

This statement is fine and I would have had no problem with it if you phrased it this way. However if you go back to what you previously wrote, you did not phrase it this way. You also said that you want to take it down right there and don't care about maximizing your win or minimizing your loss, which is very bad thinking that ultimately leads to very bad poker. Which is why I attacked your STATEMENTS as being ignorant, not you personally. So since you are so eager to give me advice on how I should conduct myself in this forum, let me give you some. Don't post things unless you are ready to defend them against people playing devil's advocate.