$60 home game - Page 2

Strickly Bidness · #11 04-17-2007, 01:40 PM

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I'd call, and depending on the flop try to let him commit his chips. Don't give him the option to fold worse hands.

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There are plenty of chips in the middle so taking it down would be a good result. Are we sure we wanna let him see a flop? I could see flat calling in a spot like this with AA, but not sure about KK. Aside from him hitting a better hand, I can think of plenty of flops that would make me fold with the best hand when he comes out betting.

DevinLake · #12 04-17-2007, 01:45 PM

OP seems to think the villain has a very narrow range. So, I want to take a line that maximizes my profit from QQ- and AK, to make up for the times he has AA.

I don't think shoving preflop does this. Of course, it does depend on the villain. In my home game, I could shove this against anyone I play and get called by worse hands, but is that the case here? Will he even call with JJ? Although you only need him to call with QQ+ to make this +EV cause of the chips in the middle, I still want to try to grab a bigger edge by getting him to commit more chips with a larger range.

Slim Pickens · #13 04-17-2007, 01:49 PM

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i guess I'd jam here because it is 6-handed. If it were 9-handed then I'd fold.....MAYBE.

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Why would you play it differently 6-handed versus 9-handed if you're going to put him on the same re-raising range in both cases?

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Because 6-handed its much less likely that you are up against AA. I would not put him on the same re-raising range in both cases. People raise much lighter short-handed, as I'm sure you know.

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Would you agree with putting him on a 3-betting range of QQ+ 9-handed and JJ+,AK 6-handed? I thought I'd remembered you saying something about the ranges being the same but apparently I just made that up myself.

Strickly Bidness · #14 04-17-2007, 01:55 PM

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i guess I'd jam here because it is 6-handed. If it were 9-handed then I'd fold.....MAYBE.

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Why would you play it differently 6-handed versus 9-handed if you're going to put him on the same re-raising range in both cases?

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Because 6-handed its much less likely that you are up against AA. I would not put him on the same re-raising range in both cases. People raise much lighter short-handed, as I'm sure you know.

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Would you agree with putting him on a 3-betting range of QQ+ 9-handed and JJ+,AK 6-handed? I thought I'd remembered you saying something about the ranges being the same but apparently I just made that up myself.

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nah i dont remember saying ranges are the same. I really don't know villain so some of this is just speculation on the actual ranges. We never even got villains actual position did we? I'd say that TT+, AK is reasonable for what I understand of villain 6-handed. 9-handed I'd say QQ+ and maybe AKs but again I'd have to know villain well. Also the AK hands will have to be downweighted as we hold two kings.

Strickly Bidness · #15 04-17-2007, 02:01 PM

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OP seems to think the villain has a very narrow range. So, I want to take a line that maximizes my profit from QQ- and AK, to make up for the times he has AA.

I don't think shoving preflop does this. Of course, it does depend on the villain. In my home game, I could shove this against anyone I play and get called by worse hands, but is that the case here? Will he even call with JJ? Although you only need him to call with QQ+ to make this +EV cause of the chips in the middle, I still want to try to grab a bigger edge by getting him to commit more chips with a larger range.

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Devin,

I appreciate your point and I challenge you to running some math on the EV of various moves for this hand. We also have to consider how much we can lose by flat calling both when he hits and when we end up folding the best hand post flop. This is an interesting problem.

I actually had a friend (Sossman on 2+2) describe this very same hand to me about a month ago. It wasn't a SNG,it was a cash game and it played much wilder than this game appparently but Soss only had 20 chips invested 9-handed and decided to over shove on button raiser with like 700 behind. I told him to fold and he said I'm weak-tight. I dont know if I agree. What's 20 chips invested? Its nothing. Why jam? Well he jammed and ran into AA. Then again, he flopped a K and took my boy's stack because he's a natural luck box (but that's a different story).

Nikoms · #16 04-17-2007, 02:02 PM

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Blow it up! If he knows you're TAG he also [s]thinks[/s] knowsyou can lay down a hand. If he's got AA TL.

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Also if he's repopping with AK, AQ, QQ or JJ you're a huge favorite. The ONLY hand you're a dog to is AA - and the chance that he's holding that is <1% (at least, mathmatically).

He knows, that you know, that he would only re-pop with the hands you're putting him on - i.e. he could be doing this with air or at least a hand you have beat, knowing that as soon as you re-raise, he folds or he calls and bets an A-high flop.

Personally, I shove - if he calls with AA - you've got a great story.

Incidentally - I bet he folds his bluff (unless, of course, he has AA)

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The chance that he has AA is much much greater than 1% given his action. You must update your prior when he raises like this. OP only has 150 invested so its not CLEARLY a push when 9-handed. I think at 6-handed very few people can fold this.

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I agree - and never said "CLEARLY a push" - and it's NOT 9 handed, it's 6.

Yes, he could call, but if the flop hits A high what do you do? What do you do if it doesn't? I think villain is usuing our style and reads against us. Some have said that LHE is a card game with betting and NL Hold 'Em is a betting game that happens to use cards - I think this is what's happening in this case.

Ironically, if he DOES have JJ-AA, seing the flop is somewhat useless (except of course, if it comes down Kxx). As he's betting the flop hard with any of the above - and possibly making a c-bet with AK.

My point is, IF the ultra-tight range that the OP puts him on is true, the "coin flip" has already occurred - he's either losing his stack against AA, chopping with KK, or doubling up through QQ. I would prefer to take the guess work post-flop so that if he's holding AKs or JJ, we get his money now - while we're the favorite, instead of having him catch an A or have him flopping trips if he has a weaker PP. Get your money in while you're ahead. %'s would dictate (even with his action - to a point) that you've got the best hand now. I think if you fold KK here, you're a folding a better hand 85%+ of the time.

DevinLake · #17 04-17-2007, 02:25 PM

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I appreciate your point and I challenge you to running some math on the EV of various moves for this hand.

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Meh. There are so many assumptions and situations, this can't be +EV for me. OP would be the best person to do this, as he knows the villain best.

johnnyrocket · #18 04-17-2007, 02:32 PM

his hand range is too tight, if you're tight you'll fold lots of hands to a big reraise also, I like the push here

Strickly Bidness · #19 04-17-2007, 02:36 PM

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I appreciate your point and I challenge you to running some math on the EV of various moves for this hand.

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Meh. There are so many assumptions and situations, this can't be +EV for me. OP would be the best person to do this, as he knows the villain best.

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LOL. Yah it does seem like we could spend a few hours on just about every thread and get a really good answer, but it would take awhile. Perhaps we should hire a resident probabilist to do this for the forum

SossMan · #20 04-17-2007, 03:26 PM

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OP seems to think the villain has a very narrow range. So, I want to take a line that maximizes my profit from QQ- and AK, to make up for the times he has AA.

I don't think shoving preflop does this. Of course, it does depend on the villain. In my home game, I could shove this against anyone I play and get called by worse hands, but is that the case here? Will he even call with JJ? Although you only need him to call with QQ+ to make this +EV cause of the chips in the middle, I still want to try to grab a bigger edge by getting him to commit more chips with a larger range.

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Devin,

I appreciate your point and I challenge you to running some math on the EV of various moves for this hand. We also have to consider how much we can lose by flat calling both when he hits and when we end up folding the best hand post flop. This is an interesting problem.

I actually had a friend (Sossman on 2+2) describe this very same hand to me about a month ago. It wasn't a SNG,it was a cash game and it played much wilder than this game appparently but Soss only had 20 chips invested 9-handed and decided to over shove on button raiser with like 700 behind. I told him to fold and he said I'm weak-tight. I dont know if I agree. What's 20 chips invested? Its nothing. Why jam? Well he jammed and ran into AA. Then again, he flopped a K and took my boy's stack because he's a natural luck box (but that's a different story).

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The only thing similar about my hand and this one is that it was AA v KK preflop.

In my hand, I raised in EP to $20, LP caller, button made it $100 to go and was an ABC player. There's no way I can put him on a tight enough range to consider folding there. The fact that I have 'only $20 invested' is pretty irrelevant.