Adjusting when they peg you as a c-bettor

[matrix]

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check raise turn on floaters with overpair is a fast track to valuetown baby

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

we have AA - we raise preflop and get 1 caller

we "cbet" the flop for ~pot - he calls
we check and "floater" bets 2/3 pot.

why the hell would you want to raise here (unless villain is a station)

by all means CRAI if you think they have something and they'll call - but if you think they are floating (and therefore have nothing) your best play is to call the turn and make a small value bet on the river hoping they caught a little something on the river they will call with getting monster pot odds.

to float someone is to call a flop bet because you think it's a CB then either raise their turn lead - or bet the turn when it's checked to you with any two cards (usually 2 cards that have ZERO showdown value)

If you float and the turn is called by the pfr YOU SHUTDOWN.

you get 2 streets of value from a floater - thats all she wrote.

OP:

What Gelford said...

[Sean Fraley]

When I encounter these villains, I try the following:

1) If villain's fold to turn bet percentage is high, I will start second barreling him.

2) If he will check behind on the flop if the flop misses him, I will delay my c-bet until the turn.

3) If he bets the flop when checked to entirely on principal, I will experiment with stop-n-go (check-call the flop, lead the turn) when the flop misses me or I have less than top pair, and check-raise overpairs and TPGK a few times so he gets the message that his current tactics are just going to cost him.

4) If he likes to make moves on the turn, just remember that a few check-raises with two pair on the turn tends to straighten them out.

If the guy is calling all the way to showdown because he constantly thinks you are betting with nothing, then thank the poker gods that you have turned him into a calling station. Stop c-betting him, and start value-betting the crap out of him. The great thing about guys like this is that you will carve a few good size chunks off of their stack before it occurs to them why you stopped c-betting them a while back.

[holyfield5]

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check raise turn on floaters with overpair is a fast track to valuetown baby

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

we have AA - we raise preflop and get 1 caller

we "cbet" the flop for ~pot - he calls
we check and "floater" bets 2/3 pot.
oop 2 streets of value is good, often the only call you will get if you call and bet the river is a call or raise when they have you beat(not to mention they got an extra card) he will often assume you are fed up with his floating and call with weaker hands.....also if he folds he now knows you will CR the turn on him and you are wise to him

why the hell would you want to raise here (unless villain is a station)

by all means CRAI if you think they have something and they'll call - but if you think they are floating (and therefore have nothing) your best play is to call the turn and make a small value bet on the river hoping they caught a little something on the river they will call with getting monster pot odds.

i will stack you often if you try this, when i float i generally have a little something, letting me see the river for my bet is not wise, raise me off it or make me pay for my draw

to float someone is to call a flop bet because you think it's a CB then either raise their turn lead - or bet the turn when it's checked to you with any two cards (usually 2 cards that have ZERO showdown value)

not everyone floats with air

If you float and the turn is called by the pfr YOU SHUTDOWN.

maybe you do but i know many floaters that are aggro and maniacle enough that they will fire the river also when they float and you are just calling and checking

you get 2 streets of value from a floater - thats all she wrote.

OP:

What Gelford said...

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[TheDespot]

I like the responses here, thanks and keep them coming. I've never heard the term "floater" before, but I've even used this technique on occasion as well and have encountered them on more than one occasion. I think the best way to go about beating a floater is to completely change postflop play. What I mean is that I'll play my strong hands exactly like I had previously been playing my weak hands and vice versa. If this means I'd fire two barrels then I'd fire out two bets with a monster and "slowplay" my air, maybe opting for a check-raise at some point, only to switch back once I show a big bluff or something and they treat my check-raises as garbage trying to steal. The thing with these floaters is that their whole style is based entirely on reads of the opponent, so they're going to attack when they sense weakness and back off when they sense strength. The key, then, is making them believe you're weak when you're strong and you're strong when you're weak (yes, the commonly used cliche that usually is overused and misinterpreted but in this case I feel is important). The best ways I've broken a floater's psyche is either a) take a hand down to the river and take a nice pot off them with a monster or b) bluff them and bet them at their own game. Granted, a floater will be less likely to fold, so in order to do this I'd usually be showing big hands beforehand to set them up. Pretty much every floater I've bluffed has transformed from floater to maniac within seconds, and that's a wonderful thing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[munkey]

2nd barrel, requires reads and good board texture and a villan that can read the board - high variance though. I 2nd barreled a known TAG today and he called with his small PP on flushy paired 2 broadway board so don't even expect TAGs to fold.

Maybe he had a read on me, but still next time ame scenarioI do it I'll be value betting.

c/r flop or turn with good draw + showdown value or stackadonk if appropriate.

I rarely float with air, but then I'm such a NIT I've almost always got outs[maybe 2 [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]/showdown value whatever I'm holding.

[matrix]

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often the only call you will get if you call and bet the river is a call or raise when they have you beat.


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you have 6 outs to hit a pair on the river and 4 outs to make your gutshot - I get more value the extra times you hit a pair and make "a little something" and I give you 4:1 pot odds so you feel you have to call (if you think my flop bet is a CB and decide to float it's more likely you think I am drawing on the turn and call my smaller value bets when I have you beat) - a lot depends on reads and board texture and stuff tho.

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if he folds he now knows you will CR the turn on him and you are wise to him[/b]

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I CR turns often - just not when I have AA and am fairly sure villain will fold to my CR when I make it - calling the turn and checking river to villain here also induces bluffs often. If he checks behind I wasn't making anything extra anyway (a lot depends on how pot stuck I think villain is and whether I think he's station enough to call with a gutshot)

I CR when I have nothing much either and am wise to villain - why waste good hands by turning them into 72o?

CR turn instead with MPGK or worse.
CR turn with an overpair if you think villain will call - but then it's a value CR.

CRing the best hand to make someone fold a worse hand with only 4 outs is not how to get to valuetown. It's how to get to scaredofbeingsuckedoutonville.

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i will stack you often if you try this, when i float i generally have a little something, letting me see the river for my bet is not wise, raise me off it or make me pay for my draw

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I can fold AA on the river when a draw hits and "floaty" villain raises large - I lose the medium pot I built but I shania villain into thinking he can pull moves on me and get me to fold the best hand often. If villain is aggro enough to raise my small river bet as a bluff I'll usually stack him eventually when he pulls the same move with a rivered goofy 2pair when I have a real hand.

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not everyone floats with air

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semantics [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] - floating = 4 or less outs in my book more than that is semi-bluffing

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i know many floaters that are aggro and maniacle enough that they will fire the river also when they float and you are just calling and checking

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vs a villain who's "calling an checking on the river" i.e. is a calling station on the river this is v v bad I think.

vs a tricky TAG villain this is usually chip suicide - especially if you do it often vs villains that can read hands and pay attention. Tho I can see that working lots vs a w/t "TAG" so it does have some plus points.

It just takes one hand to stack a overaggro villain (and a little patience) - one slip up raising the river in spots where you only get called by stuff that beats you costs you your entire stack when it goes wrong and all those little flop bets and turn bets and medium sized pots you stole - a whole evening of grinding can go up in smoke.

[TheDespot]

I think check-raising the turn too much may lead to really bad results, though. When you run into a big hand or the villain puts you on nothing if you're bluffing, you're going to lose a nice chunk. If you bluff check-raise the turn and the villain just smooth calls, then what's the action if we whiff on the river? Just shutdown here? Is the turn basically the last stand then? And why make a value check-raise instead of betting? If the villain checks behind then the value is completely lost, and this will happen if the villain just wants to take it to showdown. The only time it's going to be effective is if we have a decent hand that is better than the villain puts us on and the villain is somewhat weak so the villain will just call down, if the villain is drawing so we make him pay, or if both of us have strong hands but we are stronger. This seems to suggest check-raising should be done with strong hands but not with monster hands (slowplaying will lead to extracting more on the river) and only occasionally with bluffs (they'll work much less of the time), no?