The Problem with Atheism: by Sam Harris

[luckyme]

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Harris -
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to merely observe the contents of consciousness and to not get lost in thought, he experiences things that most scientists and artists are not likely to have experienced, unless they have made precisely the same efforts at introspection.

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I have a lot of comments by scientists/artists to tear out of books if Harris is right about this, since the lying SOBs claim to have very 'spiritual' experiences.

luckyme

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I believe he is talking about something more than the typical experience of loss of self. There's an interesting piece expanding on this here; http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian...es/001324.html

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Different personalities need to make different efforts to experience 'spirituality'. A tightly wound extrovert such as Harris may need to go to the extreme to "get down". More introverted people can achieve that deep reach inside with much less effort. For some, it's almost on call.

Think Donald Trump and Albert Einstein ( and he wasn't an extreme introvert) ... Trump may need to be drugged to get through the first step. Einstein may be at step 5 just by closing his eyes at his desk.

luckyme

[luckyme]

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You think atheism leads to lower birthrates?

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I'm certain it correlates. I believe it causal.

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It may be causal in the way baseball bats are the cause of broken noses.
Intelligence and education seem to bring a lot of changes - higher income, lower crime, atheism, lower birth rate, longevity, better health.

luckyme

[vhawk01]

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Given the absence of evidence for God, and the stupidity and suffering that still thrives under the mantle of religion, declaring oneself an “atheist” would seem the only appropriate response.

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I'm regularly troubled by the arrogance of atheists, most particularly those looking to spread the 'good' word. There exists no significantly atheist/secular country that has a birthrate above replacement level, in fact the more secular the country, the lower the birthrate, in general. I can think of few more telling indicators of the health of a philosophy than its tendency to extinguish itself.

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LOL man do you have this backwards.

[tame_deuces]

I dunno about his point on 'core religious experiences' and introspection. There is this myth that atheists are so much less spiritual. In a sense many of us are because many of us put the spirit in the body, and hence the semantic meaning of the word is lost.

But hey, come on. It is a big and wonderful world out there. I don't need demons & angels when I could humans, living and historical, who fills those niches nicely. I don't need god, because there are actual observed physical forces of the universe that as of yet goes beyond human understanding. I don't want _a_ truth, when there are thousand of truths out there, I want perspective thank you very much. I don't need to love god to have my share of many of the wonderful/horrible emotions you have simply from being human, and I don't need anyone to forcefeed me truths about how we got here when searching for it gives so many more wonderful answers.

So sorry in advance for not being 'spiritual' or a 'theist', or sometimes being arrogant, but I have no time for simple answers and basic solutions. When being spiritual is so often equaled to introspect oneself and accept simple solutions who provide no knowledge, then excuse me for not going down that path, and yeah - in all arrogance I'll claim accepting some old theist belief is a boring and simple path which lacks any imagination and has nothing to do with understanding what it means to be human.

[luckyme]

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in all arrogance I'll claim accepting some old theist belief is a boring and simple path which lacks any imagination and has nothing to do with understanding what it means to be human.

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Yes, it removes the understanding. Even worse, it extracts all the wonderful aspects of being human and posits them with a ghostly external entity. All the kindness, goodness that we witness in people is not theirs ( apparently all the badness is).
Theism in general is a degrading view of humanity and on a larger scale but of less importance, it's degrading of the marvel of nature.

luckyme

[Jamougha]

lucky,

I'm not sure if you're aware of the research on meditation. There's sound evidence that it produces changes including neural growth in the areas of the brain responsible for sensory perception and compassion, abnormal brain-wave patterns, improved memory, decreased field-dependence and increased subjective well-being. This seems more significant that the results of the introspective experiences of a typical introvert; afaik, introversion is associated with lower subjective well being, for example.

When we record these effects and the people who have actually spent considerable time meditating give fairly specific, consistent descriptions of their subjective experiences of a state of mind that is removed from their prior experience, I think that dismissing this is too easy. To my mind there is a topic here that appears to warrant further research.

[luckyme]

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lucky,

I'm not sure if you're aware of the research on meditation. There's sound evidence that it produces changes including neural growth in the areas of the brain responsible for sensory perception and compassion, abnormal brain-wave patterns, improved memory, decreased field-dependence and increased subjective well-being. This seems more significant that the results of the introspective experiences of a typical introvert; afaik, introversion is associated with lower subjective well being, for example.

When we record these effects and the people who have actually spent considerable time meditating give fairly specific, consistent descriptions of their subjective experiences of a state of mind that is removed from their prior experience, I think that dismissing this is too easy. To my mind there is a topic here that appears to warrant further research.

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The portion of my comment that relates to what you are raising is perhaps this -
There is no magic 'spirituality' that hits you when you become a theist. There is no lack of 'spirituality' that is denied you when you remain an atheist.
Harris is morhping several issues into one and attributing things to the wrong 'cause'. My example of a 'The Donald' type personality was to illustrate how if he were an theist or an atheist he would have to put much more effort into reaching that state of mind that a more naturally introspective and/or introverted personality does.

I'm not dismissing the results of meditation at all, but clarifying that a) not all mediation is equal b) various levels/types of meditative experiences are reached easier by different personalities(?) c) the attribution of any theist component to the experience is an arbitrary 'add-on' not an intrinsic part of the experience.

luckyme

[Lestat]

Thanks for posting this. I very much agree that we shouldn't call ourselves atheists in the same way that we shouldn't call ourselves "non-racist".

[Jamougha]

lucky,

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There is no magic 'spirituality' that hits you when you become a theist. There is no lack of 'spirituality' that is denied you when you remain an atheist.

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This is Harris' point; that contemplative experiences, which we describe as spiritual, are not truly religious experiences and can (and should) be studied for their own sake. I'm not clear how 'Harris is morhping several issues into one and attributing things to the wrong 'cause'.'

[luckyme]

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lucky,

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There is no magic 'spirituality' that hits you when you become a theist. There is no lack of 'spirituality' that is denied you when you remain an atheist.

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This is Harris' point; that contemplative experiences, which we describe as spiritual, are not truly religious experiences and can (and should) be studied for their own sake. I'm not clear how 'Harris is morhping several issues into one and attributing things to the wrong 'cause'.'

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In a general way, my comments relate to this -

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Harris has another problem in how atheism's inability to relate with the core experience across religions.

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Yet, 'spirituality' is NOT a core experience across religions.

luckyme