NL25 - How to play 2nd pair + nut flush draw?

[KurtSF]

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I'm not trying to sound defensive, I just want to learn, but can somebody explain why raising here would be dead-wrong?

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It depends on your opponents.

You've got a huge nut draw, and potentially as many as 5 additional outs beyond that. With a check-raise and a 3-bet you're almost certainly going to fold out the other two players and end up HU against the guy who has you beat and may have a set. You'd rather play a big pot multi-way with this hand - its just a high variance play.

The other thing is, usually when you raise draws you do it because you have some FE. You have a chance to fold out the other players in the hand and take the pot right there without having to get lucky hit your out card. SB just put on a check-raise and likes his hand. You have no fold equity, IMO, and need to hit to win.

[CazicT]

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9out outs with 80+bbs left to bet

hahahah at even thinking about folding

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9 outs to an obvious draw and he would still have a redraw. Again, i'm basing this on having a heavy suspicion of a set or at the very least aces up. The other people still in the pot might sweeten the deal a bit if at least one of them would just call.

I think if you knew the other two would fold, calling would be pretty near even. If you knew at least one would call, calling would be good. If you knew they would repop, then I would have to say we would wish we would've folded.

Calling is probably right, but just assuming your hand is too good to fold and not thinking about it is wrong.

[Landlord79]

I don't have poker stove, but I believe that if you run this hand through Pokerstove we might actually be ahead here of a lot of hands when we are going to the river, heads up we are, but multiway like this I'm not so sure. My only concern would be running off the other 2 callers, that's easy money that they are donating there!

[KurtSF]

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We need to call $2.25 into a $6.25 pot, so our immediate pot odds are not good enough to call.

The key is the two players behind us.

[/ QUOTE ]The key is implied odds. We don't need immediate odds unless villain is folding too much when the flush draw comes in. We certain don't need the other two players to stay in for this to be a profitable call.

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You are, of course, correct. Both these reasons make it right not to fold.

I guess my point was that the fellow I was responding to said "I don't think we have odds" when finding out if we do or not essentially entails looking at the pot size.

[BJJIII]

I like a call to keep others in as well, but I think we are up against A2 or 22 IMO.

[crazymoose]

If you are sure one of the other two guys will come along I like a call. If they are bad players one of them might pay you off where the SB wouldn't as he seems at least semi-decent.

Also, if SB could be doing this with some kind of low combo draw (a possible SB holding) your equity vs. him goes to almost 50-50 so if you have any fold equity at all (a long shot seeing as how his c/r is kinda small i.e. he wants some value and he did it to 3 people) I like a raise.

[Landlord79]

If one of the 2 callers behind us reraises AI and the SB calls, it's all going to the middle anyway! We do actually have a big hand here even though it isn't currently winning.

[bottomset]

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I think if you knew the other two would fold, calling would be pretty near even

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highly doubtful

not sure what level you play but its nl25 the players call too much, you are going to average a very solid return when you hit

[rdrr]

Thanks for the help guys, I'm thoroughly enlightened and embarassed at the same time [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] ...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $32.40
Hero (BB): $25.00
UTG: $14.95
UTG+1: $33.65
MP1: $23.10
MP2: $24.15
CO: $20.75
BTN: $17.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 2 folds, SB calls $0.15, Hero checks

Flop: ($1) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.75</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, <font color="red">SB raises to $3.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8.50</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $30.25</font>, Hero calls all-in for $16.25
Uncalled bet of $5.50 returned to SB

Turn: ($52) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($52) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $52.00 ($2.55 Rake)

SB had K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, Aces and Kings) and LOST (-$25.00)
Hero had 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a flush, Ace high) and WON (+$24.45)

[bottomset]

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Also, if SB could be doing this with some kind of low combo draw (a possible SB holding) your equity vs. him goes to almost 50-50

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you are destroying any combodraw here, the only combodraws left are gutshot + weaker FD and you are 83/17favs vs them

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If you are sure one of the other two guys will come along I like a call

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the other 2 could both fold 100% of the time and it is still an easy call