Christianity, the cancer within the US culture.

[Mark1808]

[ QUOTE ]
You know who I hate? George Bush. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] You guys may not be smart enough to figure out why, [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] either that or you're to homophobic and racist to know any better but he's such a standard American it makes me sick. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You hate George Bush because he believes in God and because he is confident in who he is and what he believes. Standard Americans are what has made America great. Do you see why?

[NewTeaBag]

Excellent link.

In a 1st: I agree with Migde on this issue. In 13 yrs as a Naval Officer, I saw a steady increase in Christian/religios zealotry.

EXs:

1) I was legally separated, from my then wife, just prior to a 9mo carrier battle group deployment as a Sub Liason Officer on DESRON Staff. When we pulled into Perth, Austrailia, I met an awesome woman who I ended up spending most of a week with. A LCDR ( I was a LT) on the staff actually gave me a private ranting anout how I was committing adultery, and could be charged under the UCMJ. I laghed and reminded him I was legally separated and e kept telling me it didn't matter since I was stll married. Luckily, Before I could get in trouble with a sharpish reply, the CSO (Chief Staff Officer), a CDR, happened along, and not hearing our conversation, punched me on the shoulder, with a big grin, and said, "Hey! I saw that hot mama you were with last night. Did ye feck er?" That ended the LCDRs little preaching and judging mission.

2) Missile Submarines in The US Navy, which are exclusively male crewed, have a tradition going back to the 60s, that near the end of a deployment, pictures of women are posted on the each missile tube correpsonding with the number of days left until RTP, return to port.

On my last SSBN deployment, around day 19 prior to RTP, I was returning from a watch in the engineroom and I noticed that all the pix had been taken down. That night, at dinner in the wardroom, I asked the table if anyone kenw where the pix had gone. The Executive Officer responded, "Some members of the crew, including myself, found them offensive, so I ordered them removed."

I lauged and said, "C'mon, XO! They were SI swimsuit pix, not a midget fecking a donkey or anything even remotely pornographic!

His response was a curt, "They were offensive, I had them removed, and that is all!"

Now with the whole wardroom watching, and me not known for biting my tongue, I posed a followup question. I asked, "So, XO. You're telling me the pictures of the clothed (in bikinis), beautiful women are offensive, but the missiles tubes on which they are placed, which house up to 10 warheads each, which each are capable of vaporizing over 1 million people instantly are NOT offensive?"

He rapidly replied with, "Mr XXXXX, you have a negative attitude towards nuclear weapons!"

I said, "You're gawdamn right I have a negative attitude towards nuclear weapons! Do you have a positve attitude towards them?"

Before we could heat up any more (and I could get myself in trouble) The CAPT broke in with laughter at the irony on the XOs position and changed the sbject, in a way which made it clear he didn't wan't the argument to proceed any further. The CAPT later told me that he agreed with me but had to acede to the wishes of crewmembers who claimed to be offended.

[Exsubmariner]

[ QUOTE ]
Now with the whole wardroom watching, and me not known for biting my tongue, I posed a followup question. I asked, "So, XO. You're telling me the pictures of the clothed (in bikinis), beautiful women are offensive, but the missiles tubes on which they are placed, which house up to 10 warheads each, which each are capable of vaporizing over 1 million people instantly are NOT offensive?"


[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now:
"We train young men to drop fire on people, but they cannot write [censored] on their aeroplane, because....It's Obscene."

[ QUOTE ]
He rapidly replied with, "Mr XXXXX, you have a negative attitude towards nuclear weapons!"

I said, "You're gawdamn right I have a negative attitude towards nuclear weapons! Do you have a positve attitude towards them?"

Before we could heat up any more (and I could get myself in trouble) The CAPT broke in with laughter at the irony on the XOs position and changed the sbject, in a way which made it clear he didn't wan't the argument to proceed any further. The CAPT later told me that he agreed with me but had to acede to the wishes of crewmembers who claimed to be offended.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ironically, we had a Captain who I nicknamed "psycho." I'd say he had a positive attitude toward nuclear weapons. I thought he was an exception in my experience. However, I have discovered that individuals who share many similarities with him are in fact common in the American landscape. The military is like society on a shorter, finer scale.

I don't really have time to go into all the psychology I have studied about the subject in the intervening years, but I will say I think the hypocritical behavior that can be observed on the part of many who profess devotion to their faith is in fact rooted in a set of contradictory beliefs. They are behaving perfectly in accordance with the cognitive dissonance taught to them as dogma.

[NewTeaBag]

[ QUOTE ]
Reminds me of Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now:
"We train young men to drop fire on people, but they cannot write [censored] on their aeroplane, because....It's Obscene."

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly enough, I had self contelplative Apocalypse Now moment right before I left the Navy. As I was doing one of my last Dirty CT jobs in Europe, I heard Martin Sheen's line run through my head.

"They were going to make me a major for this (LCDR in my case) and I wasn't even in their f**king army (navy in my case) anymore!"

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
Interestingly enough, I had self contelplative Apocalypse Now moment right before I left the Navy. As I was doing one of my last Dirty CT jobs in Europe, I heard Martin Sheen's line run through my head.

"They were going to make me a major for this (LCDR in my case) and I wasn't even in their f**king army (navy in my case) anymore!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the important contributions you've made in this thread, especially considering the power wielded by the US Air Force and the Navy's SSBMs.

~ Rick

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
Excellent link.

In a 1st: I agree with Migde on this issue. In 13 yrs as a Naval Officer, I saw a steady increase in Christian/religios zealotry.

EXs:

1) I was legally separated, from my then wife, just prior to a 9mo carrier battle group deployment as a Sub Liason Officer on DESRON Staff. When we pulled into Perth, Austrailia, I met an awesome woman who I ended up spending most of a week with. A LCDR ( I was a LT) on the staff actually gave me a private ranting anout how I was committing adultery, and could be charged under the UCMJ. I laghed and reminded him I was legally separated and e kept telling me it didn't matter since I was stll married. Luckily, Before I could get in trouble with a sharpish reply, the CSO (Chief Staff Officer), a CDR, happened along, and not hearing our conversation, punched me on the shoulder, with a big grin, and said, "Hey! I saw that hot mama you were with last night. Did ye feck er?" That ended the LCDRs little preaching and judging mission.

2) Missile Submarines in The US Navy, which are exclusively male crewed, have a tradition going back to the 60s, that near the end of a deployment, pictures of women are posted on the each missile tube correpsonding with the number of days left until RTP, return to port.

On my last SSBN deployment, around day 19 prior to RTP, I was returning from a watch in the engineroom and I noticed that all the pix had been taken down. That night, at dinner in the wardroom, I asked the table if anyone kenw where the pix had gone. The Executive Officer responded, "Some members of the crew, including myself, found them offensive, so I ordered them removed."

I lauged and said, "C'mon, XO! They were SI swimsuit pix, not a midget fecking a donkey or anything even remotely pornographic!

His response was a curt, "They were offensive, I had them removed, and that is all!"

Now with the whole wardroom watching, and me not known for biting my tongue, I posed a followup question. I asked, "So, XO. You're telling me the pictures of the clothed (in bikinis), beautiful women are offensive, but the missiles tubes on which they are placed, which house up to 10 warheads each, which each are capable of vaporizing over 1 million people instantly are NOT offensive?"

He rapidly replied with, "Mr XXXXX, you have a negative attitude towards nuclear weapons!"

I said, "You're gawdamn right I have a negative attitude towards nuclear weapons! Do you have a positve attitude towards them?"

Before we could heat up any more (and I could get myself in trouble) The CAPT broke in with laughter at the irony on the XOs position and changed the sbject, in a way which made it clear he didn't wan't the argument to proceed any further. The CAPT later told me that he agreed with me but had to acede to the wishes of crewmembers who claimed to be offended.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do any of those things indicated an increase in religious zealotry in the Navy? I've been a Naval Flight Officer for almost 10 years now and I have seen no indication of this. Although I know of incidents like the one you mentioned, the SI photo one in particular, it has much more to do with the political correctness that has taken hold in the military than with any religious zealotry.

As for the original article, it in no way follows that religious zealotry at USAFA = religious zealotry in the Air Force (or military as a whole).

[NewTeaBag]

[ QUOTE ]

How do any of those things indicated an increase in religious zealotry in the Navy? I've been a Naval Flight Officer for almost 10 years now and I have seen no indication of this. Although I know of incidents like the one you mentioned, the SI photo one in particular, it has much more to do with the political correctness that has taken hold in the military than with any religious zealotry.

[/ QUOTE ]

NFO? Well OBV you aviators wouldn't notice the religious folks, cus you're all convinced that YOU are GOD! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Unavoidable bubblehead to flyboy barbs aside:
The LCDR who was busting my balls over the woman in Australia was a born again Christian who was attempting to force his own religious beliefs upon me by using his poor understanding of the UCMJ.

The SI swimsuit pix issue was brought to a head by the new XO, an evangelical, and an EM1, a devout mormon for wholly personal religious reasons vice worries about PCness.

These were just 2 examples. I have numerous stories, most seen in the surface and aviation communities. I didn't see a whole lot of the preaching BS on subs or SPECOPs for the simple reason that neither community really has time for the BS. As we both know, SURF ships, esp Carriers, have tons of room to carry marginally contributing sailors. To a lesser extent, in my experience, some air squadrons also carry a little loose change in their support personell.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the original article, it in no way follows that religious zealotry at USAFA = religious zealotry in the Air Force (or military as a whole).

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The USAFA, UNA, and USMA are the core training points for the future of each of the service's officer corps. The numbers in the Officer food chain end up with a significant %(% much greater than the entry accesions %) of the CDR/LTCOL and above officers in each service being academy graduates. Attempting to indoctrinate them religiously whilst they are captive for 4 years is both wrong and longterm damaging to the force.

On a different note, what flavour NFO are you, fast mover, fixed wing, or you actually work for a living [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img], rotary wing?

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
NFO? Well OBV you aviators wouldn't notice the religious folks, cus you're all convinced that YOU are GOD!

Unavoidable bubblehead to flyboy barbs aside:
The LCDR who was busting my balls over the woman in Australia was a born again Christian who was attempting to force his own religious beliefs upon me by using his poor understanding of the UCMJ.

The SI swimsuit pix issue was brought to a head by the new XO, an evangelical, and an EM1, a devout mormon for wholly personal religious reasons vice worries about PCness.

These were just 2 examples. I have numerous stories, most seen in the surface and aviation communities. I didn't see a whole lot of the preaching BS on subs or SPECOPs for the simple reason that neither community really has time for the BS. As we both know, SURF ships, esp Carriers, have tons of room to carry marginally contributing sailors. To a lesser extent, in my experience, some air squadrons also carry a little loose change in their support personell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because there were individuals who tried to force their beliefs on you in whatever fashion does not mean there is a systematic "religionization" of the military. Again, I've been doing this carrier aviation thing for almost ten years now and I can think of one person that was noticeable in his religious beliefs. He was the CO of the one of the Hornet squadrons in m Air Wing and about the pushiest he got was organizing a weekly Bible study class for officers. I cant speak for any other warfare community but I can assure there is very little of what you are talking about going on in Naval Aviation.

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree wholeheartedly. The USAFA, UNA, and USMA are the core training points for the future of each of the service's officer corps. The numbers in the Officer food chain end up with a significant %(% much greater than the entry accesions %) of the CDR/LTCOL and above officers in each service being academy graduates. Attempting to indoctrinate them religiously whilst they are captive for 4 years is both wrong and longterm damaging to the force.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that (should it be true) what is going on at USAFA is wrong. During my 4 years at USNA I never saw anything of the sort. But it still doesn't indicate that this is a military wide or even Air Force wide problem.

[ QUOTE ]
On a different note, what flavour NFO are you, fast mover, fixed wing, or you actually work for a living , rotary wing?

[/ QUOTE ]

In case you didnt figure it out, fast movers. EA-6Bs to be exact.

[NewTeaBag]

Fair nuff.

My concerns were that if the USAFA stuff is as reported and goes unchecked it will result in a future religionization of the AF Officer corps.



EA-6B? Ok, it's as close to working for a living as any of the fast movers. At least you guys can spend more than 10mins on station w/o whining for more fuel like F-18 drivers. (Spent far too many a TAO watch in CIC on teh carrier dealing with prima donna hornet drivers [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Though tis quite a bit of fun when they find out their alert launches originated with some pasty white dood wearing dolphins. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img])

[whiskeytown]

many, many Christians believe their faith is incompatible with military service, but they tend not to mix politics and religion as much.

You need the two mixed together to really [censored] things up, and we are well on our way.

RB