the correlation between language, thoughts and intelligence

[Xibalba]

Language only inhibits/influences thoughts in as much as you forget the difference between word and that which you speak of. I imagine, though this is certainly a rabbit out of my hat, that growing up billingual helps you because your ability to express yourself internally is "doubled" (not exactly accurate word, but whatever).
Also, the flexibility of being able to swith from one language to another allows you to formulate your own internal language. I do not mean a completely new alien thing inside, but that you can sort of formulate codewords, expressions that simply free what it is you are thinking, and so, nearly literally, let you think "outside the box".

However, I'd be wary of using "intelligence" as a key-word here. Though I agree intelligence is enhanced (and may be a pre-requisite for the succesful internalization of other languages), I think the word carries connotations that make this discussion about something else entirely.
I'd use something like "brilliance", but not in any judgemental way, more like how artists think internally, or great scientists. They have a way of expressing themselves internally that more often than not make them sound completely wacko, but anyone can realize that the problem is that they can't translate what they think inside to the people outside. I think that's what growing up billingual helps you with, the ability to start thinking less restrained, with the added bonus of giving you more "linguistic" tools as to how to explain yourself with other people.

[Blarg]

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There are many artful words of other languages that I have heard that mean something you cannot really express that well in english. This means to me that english is sort of a simple language.


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It is natural that one language will not have some nuances that another does. That doesn't make one language more complex than another.

The size of the English language dwarfs most, because it encompasses so many words or derivations from so many other languages. English originally came from germanic languages, and was conquered by Vikings, Romans, and French, each of which made enormous contributions to the language.

Those contributions made for far more fine distinctions in language than other languages tend to have. Words were adopted where they were needed to make those distinctions.

Prejudice toward one's mother tongue is natural, and many languages are interesting and beautiful. But English is the world standard in the financial and scientific fields and culturally too. It is a mess of conflicting rules and bizarre exceptions, but its position as the America of languages -- the one that has prospered by accepting all mongrels -- has given it an unprecedented and unmatched vitality and utility.

[Mike Jett]

Whoa, talk about this becoming one of my favorite 2p2 threads - basically out of nowhere.

Deep stuff.

[Gugel]

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There are many artful words of other languages that I have heard that mean something you cannot really express that well in english. This means to me that english is sort of a simple language. As well, different structures of languages really make a difference I believe in how people think. I mean, I can only have cognitive thoughts in my own language. It's like, my brain speaks English, and not other languages. So other people who think in a language with different structures are thinking in a different way at the base of thought than me.

I'm tired and watching the Simpons movie on bootleg so I'll stop now. Something that's really funny that is sort of related to this topic is that I'm watching a german copy so at the beginning it said in the intro sequences, DIE SIMPSONS, not THE SIMPSONS, and I thought that was put in there for some funny reason. Turns out it was because it was the German version, but if they did that for the real one it would be funny imo.

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Although this is impossible to confirm, English is considered to have the most words of any language.

On a side note, language definitely plays a role in the way you think. For example, people that speak English interrupt each other more frequently than people that speak Japanese. Culture obviously comes into play, but so does sentence structure. In Japanese, the verb usually comes in the end of the sentence so you have no idea what the other person is talking about until they finish. In English, it's easier to predict what the person will say because the verb comes earlier.

[burningyen]

There's a nice little metaphor for the word-idea linkage in an article in today's NYTimes (subscription required):

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Retreating to a bar at the Imperial Palace, we talked about a different mystery he had been pondering: the role words play inside the brain. Learn a bit of wine speak — “ripe black plums with an accent of earthy leather” — and you are suddenly equipped with anchors to pin down your fleeting gustatory impressions. Words, he suggested, are “like sheepdogs herding ideas.”

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[Popinjay]

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The various languages placed side by side show that with words it is never a question of truth, never a question of adequate expression; otherwise, there would not be so many languages. The "thing in itself" (which is precisely what the pure truth, apart from any of its consequences, would be) is likewise something quite incomprehensible to the creator of language and something not in the least worth striving for. This creator only designates the relations of things to men, and for expressing these relations he lays hold of the boldest metaphors.' To begin with, a nerve stimulus is transferred into an image: first metaphor. The image, in turn, is imitated in a sound: second metaphor. And each time there is a complete overleaping of one sphere, right into the middle of an entirely new and different one.

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-Friedrich Nietzsche

^somehow the truth right there

[waffle]

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Does having words for things determine if you can think about them?

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If you're interested in reading about this, this is called the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis.

[fozzy71]

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Does having words for things determine if you can think about them?

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If you're interested in reading about this, this is called the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis.

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Waffle????? Your PM box is full m8................ I want to ask if I can clone your "Waffle" cards, for the newest FT client. I have gotten multiple requests from people that want to use your cards, but there are no working mods.

[MicroBob]

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Does having words for things determine if you can think about them?

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Kurosh's Q somewhat reminds me of:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=co-c5gPWfiM


This is a clip from an old French film where the main character randomly starts chatting with an old philosopher in a cafe.

It does not have to do with bilingualness specifically but the discussion of language, communication, thought, etc is a somewhat interesting one.

Although around the 5:00 mark he does reference how a guy like Plato from 2,500 years ago writing in old Greek that nobody really knows anymore, at least, not exactly, can still be understood today because enough is able to get through.
Even if you are probably not getting the exact/precise intention of his words after translating you still can understand.

This specifically seems relevant to the Q I guess of whether you have to know the word/language for something in order to be able to think about it or comprehend it.

Apologies if the clip is too boring or too far away from the bilingualness discussion but hopefully someone enjoys it.

[ChipWrecked]

This thread got deep quickly. I thought kurosh was just sniffing glue again.