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#11
07-16-2007, 04:04 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
[ QUOTE ]
I hate this. I mean, I did nearly the same thing at one point because I got carried away by how much live people fold, but this is just the wrong guy to do it to and the wrong hand to do it with. also, 52s go all in. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I mean I don't like it either and 45s isn't exactly the best hand to do it with, but if villain is actually going to put you on a monster and only call with KK/AA, it's just a math problem and it really doesn't matter what hand you have (Junglen Theorem?) 
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#12
07-16-2007, 04:06 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The problem is, is he priced in? If you have exactly T50,000, he's already put in T12,000. The Blinds + Antes are a further T1,575 (assuming 9 handed at T300/T600 + T75). So his call would be T38,000 to win a pot that already has T63,575 in it. What's his 4 betting range? If it's ATC, sure, maybe I'd make this play, but if he has any kind of pocket pair or AK type hand he more or less has to call figuring he's racing, no? [/ QUOTE ] ...No? Last time I checked you need a lot better than 1.7:1 (not even) to call KK/AA... [/ QUOTE ] His range is definitely AA-KK? Then yeah, it's a fold, but I gathered from the information in the hand that Hero was much more LAGgy than that.
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#13
07-16-2007, 04:10 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The problem is, is he priced in? If you have exactly T50,000, he's already put in T12,000. The Blinds + Antes are a further T1,575 (assuming 9 handed at T300/T600 + T75). So his call would be T38,000 to win a pot that already has T63,575 in it. What's his 4 betting range? If it's ATC, sure, maybe I'd make this play, but if he has any kind of pocket pair or AK type hand he more or less has to call figuring he's racing, no? [/ QUOTE ] ...No? Last time I checked you need a lot better than 1.7:1 (not even) to call KK/AA... [/ QUOTE ] His range is definitely AA-KK? Then yeah, it's a fold, but I gathered from the information in the hand that Hero was much more LAGgy than that. [/ QUOTE ] And his range is still the same when it gets 5-bet? Umm... no, villain has to at least put him on something much more polarized to the top part of his range
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#14
07-16-2007, 04:58 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
i like this, but making 4/5 bet pushing light too much is something that gets me in trouble so I could be off. Points in favour of the bluff:
1. it is very likely that villain was expecting you to repop him soon, so he could have a wide range 2. No one believes a very active player when they repop another very active LP raisor from their bb. this goes with point 1. 3. Despite 1 and 2, he will not expect you to 5bet shove here without a monster. You haven't gotten into it enough that he would expect you to try something like this. 4. sucking out with 45s vs AA is sweet points not in favour: 1. you don't know if he is capable of 4betting light 2. people like calling, especially in big pots (given he is not an old nit, and you said he was young and aggro) 3. when they snap call with AA its a really bad feeling
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#15
07-16-2007, 05:28 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
Side note: I never show but if the villain tanks and folds here then it is obligatory that you show this hand and then play like a nit for the rest of the time that you are at the table.
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#16
07-16-2007, 05:32 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I hate this. I mean, I did nearly the same thing at one point because I got carried away by how much live people fold, but this is just the wrong guy to do it to and the wrong hand to do it with. also, 52s go all in. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I mean I don't like it either and 45s isn't exactly the best hand to do it with, but if villain is actually going to put you on a monster and only call with KK/AA, it's just a math problem and it really doesn't matter what hand you have (Junglen Theorem?) [/ QUOTE ] no because our hand is the optimal hand to suck out with, instead. if it doesn't matter what hand you have (and this is sorta, but not quite true) we should be doing it with 94o or something.
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#17
07-16-2007, 05:37 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I hate this. I mean, I did nearly the same thing at one point because I got carried away by how much live people fold, but this is just the wrong guy to do it to and the wrong hand to do it with. also, 52s go all in. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I mean I don't like it either and 45s isn't exactly the best hand to do it with, but if villain is actually going to put you on a monster and only call with KK/AA, it's just a math problem and it really doesn't matter what hand you have (Junglen Theorem?) [/ QUOTE ] no because our hand is the optimal hand to suck out with, instead. if it doesn't matter what hand you have (and this is sorta, but not quite true) we should be doing it with 94o or something. [/ QUOTE ] Okay obviously 45hh is better because you're getting like 8% better equity than something like 94o, but my point was (*IF* there is value) the value from shoving here comes from the times that he folds because it should be a large percent of the time, so a slight equity increase when he does call, while it does affect your overall equity, is rather small. EDIT: Plus, the difference between 45hh and any of your other 3-betting hands is going to be completely negligible.
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#19
07-16-2007, 07:36 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
[ QUOTE ]
You have bigger nuts than I do. Isn't his basically minraising you back indicating a monster? [/ QUOTE ] Hmm, i read it as the opposite, i felt it meant he had random cards, and put me on random cards so decided to throw another bet in. He clearly wouldn't expect me to be able to 5bet light here, so i did.
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#20
07-16-2007, 07:44 PM
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Re: Random bluff from $1500NL WSOP event
[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, is he priced in? [/ QUOTE ] No? If he had 3bet to 15-18k, i would have just folded it. Its because he made it 12k with a large assortment of chips that i moved allin. I felt this was a weaker raise trying to make me fold, because that was his only way to win this pot. [ QUOTE ] Sounds like you got too bored, happens to me too. It's never good. [/ QUOTE ] Quite possibly, i raised much more hands live than i would online all series out of boredom [ QUOTE ] His range is definitely AA-KK? Then yeah, it's a fold, but I gathered from the information in the hand that Hero was much more LAGgy than that. [/ QUOTE ] I can't imagine he is 4bet folding QQ or AK, but i'm putting him on a large range when he 4bets, and think hes folding alot of that. That being said, i suck at picking up tells, and still can't work out if this was spew. [ QUOTE ] no because our hand is the optimal hand to suck out with, instead. if it doesn't matter what hand you have (and this is sorta, but not quite true) we should be doing it with 94o or something. [/ QUOTE ] I didn't 5bet because i had 54h, i 5bet because we both had an active image, and i felt the 12k bet was leaving himself fold equity and meant to just fold out my random repop hands since most people never 5bet bluff here. If i'd had 94o the hand would have played out exactly the same. [ QUOTE ] Side note: I never show but if the villain tanks and folds here then it is obligatory that you show this hand and then play like a nit for the rest of the time that you are at the table. [/ QUOTE ] If he folds AKo faceup, do you still show, knowing this table isn't likely to break for the remaining 3/4 hours of the day?
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