PLO 25 - Did I play this wrap correctly

[Poker monkey]

1) Fold pre-flop - this hand is very poor

2) 13-way straight draw with no pair isn't actually that good of hand and you're less than even-money against a random Ace. With this many people in the hand you can't expect your equity to be very good, so you're probably best-off folding on the flop

3) Pot-odds on the turn: $8.60 to win $32.60 means you need 20.9% equity to call. You have 10 nut outs, and assuming your opponent has a set or two pair, there are 42 unknown cards, which would give you 23.8% equity. If no-one has hearts this goes up to 31%.

The problem is that due to the type of hands people play, he might (in fact, probably does) have redraws and/or blockers which would reduce your number of outs. The number of people seeing the flop also suggests a lot of the high cards were dealt in people's hands. You're short enough to make it a marginal call but if you're not into variance, it's not a big mistake to fold it either.

[Elrazor]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't do math on the same level as you guys. I know this is simple division here but when I am in the game, the time crunch is so stressful that I am often unsure that I made the right decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you check out the hand re-player on Poker tracker Omaha, there is a nifty little feature that works out all your pot odds for you - ok you cant do it real time, but if you use it often enough you will start to get a much better feel for spots like this, and whether its correct to call

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
So this is what I would do in the future... I add the pot $24 bucks to what I need to call $approx. 9 bucks here and then divide it by the 9 bucks and that gives me 3.8 to 1

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Janelle. Yes! Very good! Those are your "pot" odds.

In order to have favorable odds, you want your "pot" odds to be greater than the odds against making your hand. (I call those odds "hand" odds).

You compare your "pot" odds with your "hand" odds and if your "pot" odds are greater, then you have a favorable odds comparison, which we call "favorable" odds.

[ QUOTE ]
... so then I take the deck 48 and divide it by the outs and that gives me 3.7 to 1 which is the correct odds?

[/ QUOTE ]No. Wrong. (Sorry).

I like the way Elrazor did it. He just took 30/15 for when you have 15 outs on the second betting round and 29/15 for when you have 15 outs on the third betting round.

So for each out you have less, take one away from the denominator and add it to the numerator. Thus if you have 13 outs on the turn, 15-2 and 29+2 gives you 31/13.

But I don't think you really have 13 outs on the turn, because three of them will enable a possible flush for an opponent. But since maybe your opponent won't actually have two cards in the flush suit, you don't want to take away 3 from the denominator and add 3 to the numerator. So instead, just take the 3 away from the denominator to get 31/10.

And that should be easy for you do divide. So you end up with roughly 3.1 to 1 as your "hand" odds.

Finally, since your "pot" odds (3.8 to 1) are greater than your "hand" odds (3.1 to 1), you have "favorable" odds.

Get it? At any rate, that's the general idea.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like a really close decision... almost even.

[/ QUOTE ]Sometimes it's a close decision. In this case it only seems so because you didn't calculate your hand odds correctly.
[ QUOTE ]
the time crunch is so stressful that I am often unsure that I made the right decision.

[/ QUOTE ]I understand. The math is only part of it. I think either you can do the math fast and easily or you should just skip it. There are other components of the decision process that are at least as important as the math component.

But just so you'll know what's involved with the math, I've tried to describe the basic math process for you (above). It might take a while for you to become familiar with the process and simple ways to quickly and accurately get through it with a minimum of stress while playing a hand.

It might take more explanation for you to understand it. Once you do, it's kind of fun and not really difficult at all.

But it's like a lot of things that seem difficult until you see how to do them, and then they seem easy.

There are other ways to look at the mathematics involved. Do what works for you.

Buzz

[FireStorm]

The math has been pretty well summed up so I will simply add that my first inclination is that the MP player has QQ.

[JanelleBB7]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the way Elrazor did it. He just took 30/15 for when you have 15 outs on the second betting round and 29/15 for when you have 15 outs on the third betting round.

So for each out you have less, take one away from the denominator and add it to the numerator. Thus if you have 13 outs on the turn, 15-2 and 29+2 gives you 31/13.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so I realized before I read your post that I was wrong... lol thinking about that instead of my school work, and I came up with still a different answer then the one your telling me. Not to sound like an idiot but I don't understand where the 30 and 29 number is coming from.

This was my thinking... I needed to subtract the 4 cards on the board as well as the four cards in my hand. I came up with this then 52-4 takes away the four cards in my hand and then that is 48 and then I subtract 3 for the flop that is 45 and then 1 for the turn = 44. Then I take the 13 outs by the 44 cards left and that gives me 3.38 to 1.

So how did you come up with the 30 and 29? I know I am missing something here and once I get it I will be a force to be reconked with at the table lol.

[JanelleBB7]

[ QUOTE ]
if you check out the hand re-player on Poker tracker Omaha, there is a nifty little feature that works out all your pot odds for you - ok you cant do it real time, but if you use it often enough you will start to get a much better feel for spots like this, and whether its correct to call

[/ QUOTE ]

I JUST got my full version of PT last night, and I was going to try and find this hand and replay it but I forgot how to do it. I still don't know how to use Poker Tracker really. I had managed to do it one time before but it was a few days ago and I forgot where that function was. I loved that feature.. where is it?

[Toesack]

Yes you played it correctly, but I would have shoved on the flop, not only for the reasons stated but to chase away that pesky MP1 who called getting 5-1.

Additionally, I wanted to post and express my appreciation for people like Buzz who take more than 20 seconds out of their day to post on this forum. Real feedback is fantastic for new/novice players like Janelle and novice players like myself.

So thanks Buzz, I'll buy a beer in your honor with the money I win on hand based with your advice.

[Poker monkey]

... but you want to keep MP1 in, not price him out. You're either going to hit your hand or you aren't. By keeping him in, you win extra money when you hit, and it makes no difference when you lose.

[Toesack]

Point taken

[Elrazor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you check out the hand re-player on Poker tracker Omaha, there is a nifty little feature that works out all your pot odds for you - ok you cant do it real time, but if you use it often enough you will start to get a much better feel for spots like this, and whether its correct to call

[/ QUOTE ]

I JUST got my full version of PT last night, and I was going to try and find this hand and replay it but I forgot how to do it. I still don't know how to use Poker Tracker really. I had managed to do it one time before but it was a few days ago and I forgot where that function was. I loved that feature.. where is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

if you go to the 'Session notes' tab, you can see you p/l per session. at the bottom of that screen there is a list of the hands you have played that session. click on whatever hand number you want too look as and it should pop up - all the nifty features like pot odds and winning % are in there [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]