a foray back into 30/60 limit, 2 overpairs in big pots

[Victor]

i really want to raise hand 1.

[Hobbs.]

were these hands online or live? This really changes the general dynamic of interpreting hands from semi unknowns

[HOWMANY]

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i really want to raise hand 1.

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Me too, you can fold without even thinking about it if he 3bets. The way he has played looks a like lot some retardo TT/JJ or maybe even QQ-AA as well that is like "lol he can't raise now". Show him wrong.

Hand 2 is a fold. If these guys are stupid enough to play in such a way that you are folding the best hand here then they deserve the pot.

*edit*
Just read responses. I assumed these were live hands. If they aren't then I have no clue what to do.

[Bad Lobster]

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Hand 1:

Ten handed game, 4 limpers to me, I raise A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button, BB comes along, first 2 limpers call, now the third limper reraises. I cap, all call.



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I've seen limp-and-reraise so rarely that I don't have a database on what hands other players do it with, so I'll assume this player is playing it like I would. The only hand I would consider doing this with is one that suddenly looks a lot better with a lot of people in the pot, IOW big suited connectors. There's a lesser possibility that he would do it with a different premium hand like a big pocket pair.

Knowing he probably has big cards means that, unless he specifically has two big hearts, he totally misses the flop and you are way ahead of him.

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Flop is 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Preflop limp reraiser bets, CO calls, I raise, BB calls 2 cold, limp reraiser 3 bets, Co drops, I cap, BB calls.



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A straight looks scary now, but is very unlikely here.

Limp-reraiser's 3-bet does not look like someone who's drawing to a flush unless he specifically has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. In spite of all the hands posted in this forum that involve supa-aggressive betting with only a draw, I don't see that happen much in live games. Limp-reraiser's most likely hands involve either a top pair, overpair, or pair + draw. Unlikely holdings include two pair, one pair or weak draw.

Again, 3-betting looks unlikely for someone who has hit a straight, since he should be trying to keep people in the pot.

BB is extremely passive throughout. While he might have us beat or may later draw out on us, it's usually safe to ignore guys like this and treat them as 65% dead money. Whether he beats us or not, our play vis-a-vis him is about the same.


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Turn is the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. bb checks, limp reraiser bets, I raise, BB calls 2 cold, limp reraiser calls.



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This card is superficially scary until we realize it doesn't help any straight that wasn't already there.

Again BB plays calling station and limp-reraiser acts as though he's already got a made hand (ha-ha).

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River is the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB checks, limp-reraiser thinks and bets...hero?


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Danger card--put 3's, flush, full house, 4's, and straight flush on the board. At this point we're probably behind either a flush or 3 7's, but the pot's too big to fold. On the bright side, it may have just counterfeited someone's 2 pair.

Reraiser's pause to think doesn't influence me one way or the other. Even if it's not a head-fake, it's about equally possible that he's deciding whether to bluff a weak hand or thinking about how to get the most money out of his monster.

BB's check is probably weakness; such a passive guy would tend to bet out when he makes his hand. So would most anyone with any sense, although there's some chance he hit 3 7's but is afraid of a flush.

At this point I'd consider it a toss-up whether to raise or call.

[drbk2]

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After really thinking it over, I think hand 1 is a call and hand 2 is a fold. I had never seen a limp-reraise after limping behind 2 guys with an overpair...until this hand. He had KK. I think it's very close, but obviously those of you who have been playing these games more frequently than I know the texture of them to the point where a good number of you were calling out overpairs in his range where I didnt think that was a possibility. The cold caller seriously complicates things because he will usually have hearts or a hand like 76 or 78...but in the end counting the pot and weighting ranges certainly makes it a call even though we are usually behind.

Hand 2, I think is a relatively easily fold given the preflop cappers flop raise and turn raise vs. two people. The pot isn't as big, and we have to pay 2 more bets with bad reverse implied odds if we are behind. This time, however, BB had 99 and the UTG capper had AcKx and I folded. Thanks for all the input, my instincts are a little rusty these days.

James

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Wow, this is like the complete opposite of what I thought lol.

Hand 1: This is obviously a miserable spot, and often times in spots like this I just call out of confusion and figure that it can't be THAT bad since the pot is pretty big and online limit players are so unusual and crazy these days. Is that pretty much what you did, especially given the fact that you did not give the limp reraiser an overpair here?

Hand 2: I'm really surprised at your analysis in this spot. Back in the day when I was mostly a lurker I would read some of your online spots along with other top posters' that were similar to this one and that's where I learned a lot about how to piece together hand ranges. I still think there is way too much doubt that you're behind making this a calldown. I'm really surprised that you and a lot of other people think that this is such an easy fold.

[James282]

the thing is, it may be a call! i am kinda out of touch with the way the games play these days, and don't have any definitive answer for either hand. I folded hand 1 awfully because when I was a full time limit player, I would never, ever be shown kings in that spot given the preflop and river action specifically.

hand 2 is so tricky, because he's raising behind 2 people whom it looks like he has no fold equity with. Remember that he capped preflop AND raised the flop, which IMO is never a hand like AcJx. So when he pops the turn, even if his range is exactly AcKx, JJ, AA, KK, it's still a fold given reverse implied odds. But like I said, I have more trouble assigning ranges as i did in the old days. Today, people might cap AJo behind 3 people...in my experience they don't though.

[Victor]

" I folded hand 1 awfully because when I was a full time limit player, I would never, ever be shown kings in that spot given the preflop and river action specifically."

i see kk here. hell i see tt here. always have.

[Justin A]

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the thing is, it may be a call! i am kinda out of touch with the way the games play these days, and don't have any definitive answer for either hand. I folded hand 1 awfully because when I was a full time limit player, I would never, ever be shown kings in that spot given the preflop and river action specifically.

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I don't know why so many people are putting the guy on kings, because I've never ever seen an overpair overlimp two players and then reraise. However, I'd still call because I'd expect to sometimes see a random bluff with a hand like T6s that missed its straight draw, or even a hand like 98 every once in a blue moon. The other player is a bit of a worry, but given his check it makes it less likely that he just got there, and it's very easy for him to have just a straight draw or a horribly played pair. I think you could fold getting 8:1, but 25:1 is just too much to give credit to a player who made such a wacky preflop play.

I'm also out of touch with the online games, so take that fwiw.

[James282]

How about if the AA hand goes bet, call - action to me?

A lot closer there I think.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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How about if the AA hand goes bet, call - action to me?

A lot closer there I think.

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Absolutely. Against many live players I would fold in that spot with AA rather quickly.