Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[SapphireMoon]

Let me guess Pokerstars or Full Tilt?
(seems like same random generator with different skin)

Basically you have two Donks in the hand - collusion nope.

Word to the wise play close attention to hands played previously especially at Pokerstars where miracles happen and alot of Bingo/Slot Machine players are playing lately in SHL.

The guy with 44 is a Fish who more than likely plays every hand and this is obvious by his starters Q74 all off - not that suited would have been a real imrpovement (this Twit called on third in first position and calls a raise from behind!), if he were a real player and had a real low hand or hidden pocket pair, he would have bet the 44 on turn - predicting that you would raise if you had aces or fold if you had a low that bricked - thus putting pressure on BI to fold or react in any event.

Also if BI had anything he would have raised your bet on 4th to put pressure on the 44 and to find out if you are bluffing aces with a broken low draw.

So now you know they have NOTHING.

So on fifth - the check seems fine given boards but I would be suspicious of Donk 1 and Donk 2 - Seriously if you're BI would you check call a wheel draw (or any low) when you have two callers who on the surface either bricked or have high draws? Please! He's on a freeroll if you two are on high draws.

Though dicey - I might put a bet out on 5th to see what happens - you have been driving the betting and your door cards resemble a Broadway - semi-bluff equity in action.

In this situation, you really needed to know how these two play - now you know.

Also it seems a lot of the Donky Bingo players then try to steal with their boards when they haven't invested any bluff equity into it.

Now that you are out of the way he check-raises the BI to see if he is bluffing - his first real poker move of the hand and you are behind him now unable to call two bets with naked aces - I think he knows this - so perhaps not so Donkish but given starters yes.

So you bounce, and surprise surprise Mr. Q74 hits his Pokerstar miracle - the BI may have had a low (you didn't show his hand) that was rivered by the guy who shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place.

So collusion no - just Pokerstar Bingo at it's finest.

That's my 2 cents.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Raxxmataxx]

Seat 7 started with (73)4 and hit the Q on the river. Then the site shuffled his cards at showdown and it looked like he started with (Q7)4.

Lots of players don't play a 4-low aggressively. You can't discount a made low on 5th.

Seat 7's most probable hand is precisely 44 + a 4-low. The next one is two pair. He's not betting out because he wants to knock hero out and cut down competition for high, but don't want to put in 3 bets against the probable made low.

BI doesn't need to have a wheel draw to destroy aces here. He just needs a made low. Any will do. And if he's the least bit passive his play is very consistent with exactly that.

Betting 5th is disastrous. Even if you by luck are up against two paired lowdraws you're still in a world of pain. It's a checkfold, period.

The bring-ins hand wasn't shown because this is Full Tilt and they don't show losing hands. His hand probalby was 86, 83 or 82 though. There's just a very small range of hands for his hole cards to begin with, given that he was scooped, and that's even smaller if we want them to be a little bit consistent with his betting.

Any other low hole cards and he would have had a better low, any pair and he would've beat the pair of fours. It's pretty unlikely he went haywire with a busted flushdraw. Any straightdraws would've taken at least half the pot.

Bluff equity isn't something you invest, it's the extra part of the pot you get when someone folds a better hand.

[SapphireMoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 7 started with (73)4 and hit the Q on the river. Then the site shuffled his cards at showdown and it looked like he started with (Q7)4.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Full Tilt it is then... hate that they do this - makes hand history useless.

Ah.... that makes more sense for starters. Because his fifth street bet didn't make sense with a Q starter. I still think it's odd that he check raises at this point and isolates with a pair of 4s.

So still think that they are not colluding just newbie players. 44s raise should have been on 4th and not fifth with the wheel board out.

[Andy B]

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So Full Tilt it is then... hate that they do this - makes hand history useless.

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Hardly. Personally, I don't like the non-shuffled hole cards on Stars. It encourages people to play better, and it exposes me as a fraud.

[Micturition Man]

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Scared of sounding stupid, I have to say I've never seen this play before. Can you explain why this play is actually good for him... So he feels his 2743 is a good enough low draw that he must call down against a 235 board? I find this a little sketchy, and I probably find a fold better for him. Anyway, he puts me accurately on a pair of aces and figures that he wants to make his 44 good for high so he pays two extra bets to draw pretty thin against a good board?

I just don't see how this play helps him.

How can I tell that this is the type of play he is doing in this hand? Would you have called here?

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You're exaggerating how good a board of 235 rainbow on 5th is, especially with low limit players who play any razz hand on 3rd.

Add to that that a lot of people raise most of their low draws on 4th and the 44 guy could be a favorite over 235's distribution here.

[Phat Mack]

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I think he did not make a good play, he reduced both mine and his own profitability.

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I don't see how he reduced two profitabilities. It's a zero sum game, isn't it?

[roggles]

There are 3 players in the hand ...

[betgo]

The guy with 37244 had a good hand on 5th street and it was a good play to jam. These guys don't know you have split aces. It is likely you have a ace with a concealed pair, or maybe a 3-card low that bricked out. Whatever you have, it is hard for you to continue with your board against their boards.

The fold is OK, but you could also have just called them down. Problem is you are playing for half the pot and they both can scoop.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
There are 3 players in the hand ...

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You're saying that Player 7 is taking his money and your money and giving it to Player 3? I don't get it...

Edit: If Player 3 has a wheel, Player 7 cost him 3BBs.