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#12
08-21-2007, 10:41 PM
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Re: $1/$2 - TPTK on river, pretty good board... value C/R??
[ QUOTE ]
I like the check, but no point in raising [/ QUOTE ] He like never has a better hand with this bet sizing and he definitely calls with worse Q's. 
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#15
08-22-2007, 01:50 AM
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Re: $1/$2 - TPTK on river, pretty good board... value C/R??
[ QUOTE ]
disagree with alot of this thread, i definitely think there is value in raising here. [/ QUOTE ] ya, given that this villain minbet the river like a donk there is a definetly value in rasing him (i would have made it quite a bit more than 70 if i chose to ch/r)... but that ch/r on this river is definitly not optimal. like i said above, you can get more value form a Q just by betting out, because lots of times (and i argue most of the time) they are going to check behind with less than KQ. so we can check to induce bluffs, but bluffs are obviously not calling a raise. see the contradiction? as played vs this particular villain this hand is fine/good/awesome/whatever. but the line in general with this type of hand and board texture is not.
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#16
08-22-2007, 01:59 AM
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Re: $1/$2 - TPTK on river, pretty good board... value C/R??
cs3 -
It's not necessarily a contradiction. Yes, we bet to induce bluffs from draws and such. This was at the risk of missing some value from weak queens and such. So, we check. Once he makes that tiny bet, though, we can reevaluate and change his range. Whiffed draws become less likely, and marginal made hands (as well as monsters) become more likely. So, yah, ranges can change with every action, especially on the river. (classic example is that on the river most medium hands check behind and bets are mostly strong hands and bluffs - so once someone bets the river their range is more polarized, yada yada)
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#17
08-22-2007, 02:05 AM
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Re: $1/$2 - TPTK on river, pretty good board... value C/R??
Anyways with that said, I still don't love this without more information. Stats on villain? Ever seen him do this little bet before? I think he gets away from QJ- a lot here, so I don't really think there's that much value. If you know he's kind of a stubborn payoff wizard or he's generally bad or his little bets mean foo or whatever, then that certainly sways things.
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#18
08-22-2007, 02:19 AM
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Re: $1/$2 - TPTK on river, pretty good board... value C/R??
[ QUOTE ]
cs3 - we bet to induce bluffs from draws and such. This was at the risk of missing some value from weak queens and such. So, we check. Once he makes that tiny bet, though, we can reevaluate and change his range. [/ QUOTE ] ya i have no problem with the hand as it was played, given that villain did in fact make that redonkulous bet, and i know we obv have to adjust to unexpected moves from opponents. but i still maintain that this line is not optimal... we cant count on the average villain to do that with any regularity at all, and hes even less likely to actually call the river raise with a worse hand. also i thought the point of the OP was that Catcher was trying out some new ideas, and he wanted to know if this was a good line to use often... maybe im just looking at this hand in a much broader context than many of the guys who commented about it
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#19
08-22-2007, 02:23 AM
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Re: $1/$2 - TPTK on river, pretty good board... value C/R??
cs3 - I hear you. fwiw I agree that while checking a lot of medium hands on the river when the draws whiffed is all well and good, c/r'ing a lot of medium hands isn't.
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#20
08-22-2007, 02:53 AM
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Re: $1/$2 - TPTK on river, pretty good board... value C/R??
[ QUOTE ]
but i still maintain that this line is not optimal... [/ QUOTE ] If we are talking about preflop through first river action I disagree and like the line, I am finding more and more spots to let draws hang themselves [ QUOTE ] we cant count on the average villain to do that with any regularity at all, [/ QUOTE ] to do what, bluff a missed draw on the river? disagree. The intent of the river check is not to C/R for value but to maximize value versus air, and possibly C/R maybe the 1%-5% of the time it makes sense. Well this spot fell into that really rare category, so I figured it worthy of a thread, to see if any of my ideas were echoed. IMO this is right on the money [ QUOTE ] cs3 - It's not necessarily a contradiction. Yes, we bet to induce bluffs from draws and such. This was at the risk of missing some value from weak queens and such. So, we check. Once he makes that tiny bet, though, we can reevaluate and change his range. Whiffed draws become less likely, and marginal made hands (as well as monsters) become more likely. So, yah, ranges can change with every action, especially on the river. [/ QUOTE ]
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