More on being lazy and smart and being a fair but not extreme success

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2. The reason you don't put forth your best effort at a lot of things is that you don't actually value the payoff as much as you think you do. If you want to stop half-assing stuff, you should think about whether what you're doing is really what you want to be doing.


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I think that this says it best. Jared, reading your post made me so glad I haven't gone to college yet. I will go but only when I really want to study something. I'm exactly the same as you, (apart from the weight thing). When I find something that I really want to achieve and I do it to the best of my ability, I cream it. Learning Italian was one of those things. I just creamed it because when I want to do something I can. Then it's back to coasting.

I think people like us have to put themselves in the position to cream it more often. Look at writing. So many authors get published that are complete and utter crap. They are the ones at school who didn't get the obvious questions at the start but then put their heads down and worked at it. While we hold them in disdain but then achieve next to nothing. If I spent a third of the time I spend on these boards working on my never-to-be-finished-book, it would have been done long ago. Procrastination king.

We love to rest on our laurels.

[JaredL]

All good comments guys.

Spladle:
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2. The reason you don't put forth your best effort at a lot of things is that you don't actually value the payoff as much as you think you do. If you want to stop half-assing stuff, you should think about whether what you're doing is really what you want to be doing.


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I've often wondered this myself. I like Economics, but really loved math. The problem is that when I was an undergrad it was clear to me that even if I worked my ass off I would be pretty mediocre in math relative to other Ph.D. students while in economics I could do stuff that at least involves similar thought patterns and I would be much better relative to others. I also have wondered if research is really that great for me since I'm an extrovert.

At the end of the day, I think being an econ professor is one of the better jobs for me. To get there I need to finish grad school. I think being a professor will be much more rewarding though obviously I'm not 100% sure having not experience it. I'm not really sure what the best possible job would be.

Jared

[jackflashdrive]

Jared,

Here's the thing: People do what they want to do and they do what they need to do. Sounds simple but it isn't. For a variety of reasons, people *commit* to do things that they neither want nor need to do. That's when the trouble starts. You are putting forth the illusion to yourself and others that your life is taking one direction, when it *wants* to go somewhere else. It's like walking north on the deck of a southbound ship.

We are similar in many ways, including the facts that I was in a PhD program for 4 years (though I left abrubtly w/o degree) and I have written some articles for 2+2 mag. (You might be able to guess who I am). You sound confused and I suspect a misalignment of your stated goals and underlying motivation.

-J

[JaredL]

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I think you need to motivate yourself, as in think of the reward you get for doing something. For example, I hate doing work, but when I think about the money I'll get I am more inclined to do it instead of procrastinating.

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This is a good plan, but not very effective when the reward isn't very clear.

For example, with poker for me it's pretty similar to the above. I've probably made between 15 and 20 grand lifetime playing poker. When I started playing I sucked like everyone. I got a lot better after reading this forums and the books that were recomended. I've hit a huge plateau and doubt that I'm significantly better now than 2 years ago (I've been playing 3 years now). Basically, I'm good enough to make some money on the side and I haven't worked enough to improve my game to reach a level anywhere near where I could be. It's hard for me to be motivated to do that when putting in studying time doesn't directly turn into making money. If I study poker for a few hours tomorrow it will basically help me not at all. The key is to study tomorrow, then the next day, the next... When thinking about it I'll say "well studying tomorrow won't really matter" and leave it at that. Similarly, right now I could be sleeping or writing my paper, neither of which I'm doing.

I think this is a big part of the problem, and is why I included being overweight as I think that's very closely related to this. Any exercise and healthy eating I have tomorrow will have basically impact on my weight. If I took tomorrow off from doing any work on my research, it would not affect how I'm doing five years from now at all. And so on.

Jared

[goofball]

Jared,

What kind of work are you doing?

Also, think of poker is the ultimate in behavioral game theory. It's so hot that way.

[nycballer]

I'm a very similar type of person, up there with the laziest and biggest procrasinators. I got pretty good grades in high school without working, took all the APs offered, great SAT score, got into good undergrad etc. I find that there are 2 things that really get me to be productive. The first being doing something I enjoy, I find that when I enjoy the subject or the project, assignment, whatever I'm way way more likely to get it done on time and done well. This is true of everyone but the productivity curve is MUCH more steep of people like us, where the bottom of that curve is always teetering on the verge of failure(mostly small scale, i can't think of a better word failure seems to be too harsh of a word tho).

The 2nd thing that gets me going is being on the verge of complete disaster(in my mind), i.e. I'm in my junior year of school and realize I have no shot at a good law school without straight A's my last 3 semesters, which I'm completely capable of doing.

To answer your question of a solution or to change the course before it becomes too late, i think this is impossible for some people in similar boats to change. It's just something that you have to deal with and will always be there, almost like a drug addiction. You will always have to fight the urge to procrastinate/be lazy and that urge will be with u no matter what. It won't just disappear. In my case I'm just naturally a ridiculous procrastinator and just very lazy, those who aren't of the same makeup don't understand. It's not as easy as just being like "OK I'm gonna study a week before for 2 hours a day and get my papers done 3 days in advance." I truly believe that one day this will be considered a "condition". Sounds outrageous but i bet the OP will agree. It's analagous to how some people will think about a person with OCD, "why don't they just stop washing their hands so many times?" It seems so simple yet its not. obviously procrastination is not as extreme but I think it is on the same level in that it as difficult to overcome as an addiction or mental condition. btw I think i'd have a much better shot of overcoming a coke addiction than doing a 180 in my procrastination habits

Oh and I have a paper due in 5 hours that is barely halfway done [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[goofball]

Here's one specific from my life.

I can get by and do well (depending) by reading the book as we go throuhg the term or attending the lecture. I don't need to both. Consequently, I don't unless I find the matierial in the book EXTREMELY interesting.

[TyFuji]

I wrote up a paragraph on my high school experiences but I realized that it is irrelevant. The point that I want to make to those who are like OP and I (smart but lazy/"cowardly") is that the reason anyone puts a lot of effort into anything is that they are motivated. Those who are motivated by the pleasure of acheiving academic success are the ones who read things early and do their best in school. This group and our group are both equally intelligent: they just have much different motivations. They are motivated by the promise of future success in the post-school world (getting a good job, etc.) We are motivated by immediate reward: You don't have to wait 4 years before you can enjoy a pot you win.

Smart people are divided into two groups: One that feels intrinsically motivated by the promise of future success, and one that lives for immediate gratification. When we are lazy, it is just because we want to enjoy whatever we want to do instead of slaving away at something we care less about. When we play poker, we want the rush and excitement of using our mental energy for immediate and palpable gain.

[southerndog]

JaredL,

Excellent post. (I don't think you've ever written a post I haven't liked except maybe something pro-soccer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ..)

A few thoughts.. I fit in to this category, but did not play the game quite as well.I sometimes failed classes, etc.. But managed to get into a decent grad school, despite a 2.23 UGPA. (I studied math and got an MS.)

I read a post from KKF, that said "I'd be pretty happy just spending my days the way most spend their weekends." To me, that makes sense. I haven't read Anacardo's thread, so I don't know if I'm covering old ground , but sometimes I think a drive for success is simply a drive to impress others. For example, a lot people accomplish things to make their parents happy, so they can brag about them.. What's wrong with being strong enough to have the willpower to say "I'm gonna live my life for me!"?

You know the scene in fight club where brad pitt puts a gun to the Asian guy's head and said something to the effect of "Tomorrow, you're going to study to be a vetiranarian" ?? When you were a kid, did you want to be an ECON PHD?

IMO, Lazy smart isn't as lazy as people make it out to be. Jared, there are probably a lot of people in your class that put their nose in the book and never really think about what the prof is saying. All they care about is their grade. (Females are worse with this than males.) I'd bet anything that if you were to take a test in a class you took 1 year ago, assume u got a B in the class, against someone who got an A, I bet you'd be a favorite to get a higher score... Why? 1. Your probably smarter 2. you probably think about the material, and how it applies in real life, whereas the other goofballs just study for the test and don't care.. (Just my hunch, as you've written some really good articles in the magazine, etc..)

Jared, you would have felt more challenged by your peers if you went into a math program. Have you taken any grad math courses at Pitt? I assume there are a lot of very smart international students there.

[LearnedfromTV]

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The limon hypothesis (you're not lazy, you're a coward) really hit home for me. I think that this is correct.

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Yeah.

Over time I've gone from being the high school 'lazy overachiever" to having convinced myself that I don't have time to be excellent at everything, so I will get by being broadly competent. I think that's a copout. In college, I was a history major, but I also took several hardcore math classes. I got mostly B's and C's. I told myself I could get an A if it were my highest priority, but I don't know if this was true. The premise is [censored] to begin with, simply because I could have worked harder and found out, but chose not to. There are many more examples, of course.

The biggest struggles for me have always been restlessness and indecision, particularly intellectual, although both cut across non-intellectual activities also. I've never been able to stay to one task long enough to become great at it, but I have enough surface ability in a lot of areas that I can conceive of being great at most of the things I'm interested in. I can work hard for a while and imagine what I would be like to work hard at that one thing for a very long time. But I can't sustain it and I never find out how capable I really am.

Until very recently, when I quit my day job for poker, I've always had a large chunk of my time controlled by external forces, be it a class schedule, an athletic season, a boss; and I've frequently failed to give maximum effort to anything as a result of feeling like I was being forced to do the grunt work I didn't want to do. I think basketball is the only place where this didn't happen, but I didn't reach my goals there either.

Now I have complete control of my time. I know more or less what I want to study, write, think, and do, and the only thing left is to nut up and work hard and accomplish as much as I can.

I think that's what being an adult is. Doing what you do because you choose it, rather than because it was chosen for you. Some college kids are already there, but I think most people don't get here until sometime in their twenties, if at all.

Anyone in this situation who hasn't read it, I recommend Kierkegaard's Either/Or. A central theme is the idea that life demands that we choose a path, and that not choosing is itself a choice. I'll probably do a hack job of summarizing, but it'll make my point. One of the two main characters, who is single, is the focus of Part I, which consists of several essays on a variety of topics. He samples passions; six months immersed in theology, a year seducing one particular girl, six months studying Mozart. The other main character, who is married, (Kierkegaard makes broader points about marriage and God that are key to the work but not necessary for my point) criticizes the first's immaturity in Part II. One message is that even if he can speak or write brilliantly about his sampled experiences, he still cannot replicate the experience of *being* a priest, or *being* an artist, i.e. of devoting his life to a path.

One forms an identity by choosing to devote time to the details of one pursuit at the expense of others. The scary part about choosing a path is that it eliminates all of the paths one does not choose. The greater the focus on the paths not chosen or on the potential greatness at this or that which was given up, the more the chosen path is wasted or weakened. I certainly don't think this means people should only do one thing with their lives. But the indecision syndrome a lot of us have probably does derive partially/largely from a fear of failure, and choosing to meet challenges where we risk failure is the way to overcome it.