call me a donkey.....but these FTP cap NL games are awesome

[HSB]

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Cap games are the future of No limit.

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I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Cap games suck.

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They suck throbbingly.

[bkholdem]

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So if someone is inexerienced, and therefore likely to loose, where are they going to loose less? In a 300bb deep game, a 100bb deep game, or a 30bb deep game? It's simple really.

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If your goal is to lose the least amount of money, you have already lost.

All the 30bb game does is change the implied odds such that the game is greatly simplified. It doesn't actually minimize the amount of money you can lose -- it just changes hand values and should increases variance as you will be all in on the flop fairly often.

If you want to limit your loss potential, you can just play lower stakes. There are plenty of $2 and $10 NL games out there and you can leave whenever you double up (and you can even buy in short to the $2 games if you want to be really really careful).

If the Cap games themselves are more profitable for you because they suit your playing style or the competition is making a large number of errors, then that is fine, but the structure itself really doesn't "protect" the player in terms of dollar amount lost (unless they have some psychological problem that allows them to happily play a $100NL CAP game for $30 a hand but they won't play a standard 100 bb buy in, no cap NL game for stakes lower than $100NL because they think anything below $100 is too small stakes).

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I see bad players calling without odds a lot. I think that a bad player is better off calling 3 to 1 on a 2 to 1 shot than 15 to 1 on a 2 to 1 shot. Bad players get some protection calling off with draws in a game with a cap. When they get all in with the worst of it (and they do that a lot) their 'worst' costs them less.

I still think that a bad (and by bad I mean doing some gambling but not an idiot but without fundamental no limit skills) no limit player will loose less playing in a game with a 30bb cap than playing in a game wiht a 100bb cap. I see a lot of 'bad players' quickly disappear after loosing an all in where they called off their stack with a hand that was beat. I assume other competent players at the table recognize when this is happening just as I do. I would prefer they are at my 100bb table because I can get 100bb off them when they do this. At a 30bb table I only get a shot at the fishes 30bb. Mabye the game is juicer overall (and it sounds like it might be) but I think the fish will last longer (if they have a problem folding when behind without odds) at the 30bb games than the 100bb games.

After all in limit the fish last a lot longer dont they? So why would they not last longer in 'partial' no limit than 100bb no limit?

[JaredL]

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they provide a chance to learn NL without too much damage.

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Don't kid yourself.

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I think he has a valid point.

Where is an inexperienced player going to win a lot playing no limit?- only against worse players-and since he is inexperienced he has to play clueless players.

So if someone is inexerienced, and therefore likely to loose, where are they going to loose less? In a 300bb deep game, a 100bb deep game, or a 30bb deep game? It's simple really.

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I played them for a bit to see how they were and found them to be fantastic in that the players are ludicrously bad. However, a good player would be better off with playing deep stacks.

The problem is that they don't play at all like 100 bb buyin capped NL games. In these games, for example, it is usually correct to 'stack off' (cap off?) with QJ on a J high flop, which is rarely correct with reasonable stacks. For a player trying to get a feel for it, it may not be bad but can teach you bad lessons if you don't adjust to the play.

[jb9]

If a poor player is choosing between 100NL capped at 30bb per hand or 100NL uncapped, then, yes, they will go broke faster at 100NL uncapped. And, yes, it is likely that someone will lose more bb/100 hands at uncapped than capped NL.

But a poor player can certainly go broke faster at 100NL capped than 25NL uncapped, and as far as making bad calls with draws goes, a player who has problems folding draws on the flop is much better off playing the 100bb stack game as he will more often have implied odds to play the draw. It is a much bigger mistake to play your weak draw on the flop when the most you can win from your opponent is 30 bb.

For example, assuming that your opponent bet 5 bb preflop, you called, flopped a gutshot, your opponent bets 10 bb into a 10 bb pot, you are getting 2-1 pot odds on your call. If your opponent has 15 bb left to bet, your implied odds are 3.5-1 (assuming you can win his stack, of course). If your opponent has 85 bb left to bet, your implied odds are 10.5-1 -- against someone who won't fold when you hit, you usually have good odds to call the gutshot on the flop in deep stack games.

Players who can't fold draws on the flop will get killed in capped NL games -- it's the players who can't fold TP who will do better in capped games.

[ImsaKidd]

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Cap games are the future of No limit. Well, maybe not, or maybe so [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] But those games are rocking the casbah for sure. I've already paid for a couple of hookers with money from those games...

So, when is Ed Miller coming out with his No Limit Cap book? I can't wait for this one.

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OMG FULL TILT HAS PT BOTS PLAYING CAP GAMES EVERYONE RUN!!!

[Yads]

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You're a donkey.

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Good point. Seriously though, the reason why people who play shortstack/cap NL games will never get better is the same reason why most successful tourney pros are shark bait to experienced cash game players. Playing shortstack NL greatly simplifies the game.

[RikaKazak]

ahhh, the good old days of 50 bb party poker....I miss 'em.

I remember the day they came out with $200 buy in, and I "moved up".....all the players their were "big ballas" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] LOL

30 bb's is too small though. I imagine it's just a slow play fest with big pocket pairs [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] And constant ck/raising...can't be "too skilled"

[bkholdem]

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Players who can't fold draws on the flop will get killed in capped NL games -- it's the players who can't fold TP who will do better in capped games.

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So if it's a small pot (5bb) and I flop a set and my opponent has a flush draw and he bets and I raised putting him all in and he calls with his draw doesn't he loose more in a 100bb capped than 30bb capped game? Don't I win more (and therefore he loose more) if I can also get money in on the turn as an even bigger favorite in a 100bb game? In a 30bb cap game he's all in and gets to see the turn and river for just that flop call. In a larger game he faces another pot bet on the turn. And if he's really bad he pushes the river with the missed draw (maybe you don't remember the glory days when idiots did this a lot and were very transparent players). In a 30bb game he's all in protected on the flop. He's the bad player so he does not have implied odds. I fold when he hit's his hand because he plays transparently.

[elliot]

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If the Cap games themselves are more profitable for you because they suit your playing style or the competition is making a large number of errors, then that is fine

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this is exactly what i am saying, players are making no adjustments for the fact that the betting is capped at 30BB and if they take any kind of stab at the pot and are raised they will almost without fail call off the rest of their "stack"

in addition, its actually become a lot easier to read value bets when you are beat...as players make smaller bets than normal because they dont want to make a "normal" bet and hit the cap and scare you off

[dibbs]

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have top pair in position against a draw, you will get them to put in all 30BB at least 3/4 of the time.

people are calling off their entire "stack" to a flop checkraise regardless of the board, and i am absolutely loving it.

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Donk.

I have no problem with making a little easy money, but in the long run I dont think its possible for a good cap game player to make more per hour than a good NL player (100bbs).