Vegans...

[Vagos]

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I dont think thats what he means, but maybe. What I think he is saying is that, while he supports your freedom to eat meat, he only does that as a 'lesser of two evils' thing. You eating meat is still 'wrong,' its just not as wrong as him infringing on your rights. But abortion isn't wrong.

At least, thats how I would see it if I were a vegan.

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See, that's what I'm wondering. Dan, do you agree with this above statement, or would you consider abortion to be a kind of "the lesser of two evils", with infringing on a woman's rights being worse than the abortion itself.

[vhawk01]

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there isn't anyone in the world who wouldn't agree that a fetus is alive. Of course its alive. I'll wait for you to clarify some terms before we continue this, as we often have semantical problems that stall out discussion.

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I agree that it is alive. I just always hear in abortion debates this whole thing about "when life begins." If something is alive, surely it's life has begun?

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Yeah, I'm going to guess that that is just meaningless propaganda repeated ad nauseum MOSTLY by the pro-lifers but by the demagogues on both sides. If we can frame it as a 'life or death' issue, then the emotionally charged ground is won by the 'life' people. We see the same thing when talking about end-of-life issues like euthanasia, where procedures are called 'life-saving' rather than life-extending or death-delaying. Lives aren't saved, but it serves some better to think of it in life vs. death terms. Who could be in favor of DEATH!?!?

The issue with abortion is more person vs. non-person, not life versus non-life. Lots and lots of things are alive. Cats. Cucumbers. Hair. Skin. We don't care about any of these things.

[vhawk01]

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I dont think thats what he means, but maybe. What I think he is saying is that, while he supports your freedom to eat meat, he only does that as a 'lesser of two evils' thing. You eating meat is still 'wrong,' its just not as wrong as him infringing on your rights. But abortion isn't wrong.

At least, thats how I would see it if I were a vegan.

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See, that's what I'm wondering. Dan, do you agree with this above statement, or would you consider abortion to be a kind of "the lesser of two evils", with infringing on a woman's rights being worse than the abortion itself.

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Its tricky, because I think I'm not being exactly clear what I mean here. Abortion isn't wrong, because we should all be free to accept or reject any obligations placed on us by others against our will. Removing a fetus and letting die is sad, but it isn't wrong. Just like shooting someone and killing them to defend myself is sad, but it isn't wrong. (Please note I am NOT comparing abortion to self-defense, simply trying to show how something can be sad but still not wrong). I would think that, as a vegan, I would see meat-eaters as WRONG, not just sad. It would just be a wrong that I could not think of a good way of righting that wouldn't be even worse. So I would still tell you that what you are doing is wrong, when you eat meat. I wouldn't say the same to the woman looking for an abortion. I wouldn't want to force EITHER of you, though.

[Vagos]

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Its tricky, because I think I'm not being exactly clear what I mean here. Abortion isn't wrong, because we should all be free to accept or reject any obligations placed on us by others against our will . Removing a fetus and letting die is sad, but it isn't wrong. Just like shooting someone and killing them to defend myself is sad, but it isn't wrong. (Please note I am NOT comparing abortion to self-defense, simply trying to show how something can be sad but still not wrong). I would think that, as a vegan, I would see meat-eaters as WRONG, not just sad. It would just be a wrong that I could not think of a good way of righting that wouldn't be even worse. So I would still tell you that what you are doing is wrong, when you eat meat. I wouldn't say the same to the woman looking for an abortion. I wouldn't want to force EITHER of you, though.

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Hang on though, a VERY LARGE majority of abortions, are cases where the woman has not been subjected to such against her will(i.e. some kind of rape/incest case). In the eyes of a vegan, is the woman who sleeps around all the time and gets abortions just as morally reprehensible as someone who goes out hunting every month and eating hamburgers every single day?

[New001]

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Its tricky, because I think I'm not being exactly clear what I mean here. Abortion isn't wrong, because we should all be free to accept or reject any obligations placed on us by others against our will . Removing a fetus and letting die is sad, but it isn't wrong. Just like shooting someone and killing them to defend myself is sad, but it isn't wrong. (Please note I am NOT comparing abortion to self-defense, simply trying to show how something can be sad but still not wrong). I would think that, as a vegan, I would see meat-eaters as WRONG, not just sad. It would just be a wrong that I could not think of a good way of righting that wouldn't be even worse. So I would still tell you that what you are doing is wrong, when you eat meat. I wouldn't say the same to the woman looking for an abortion. I wouldn't want to force EITHER of you, though.

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Hang on though, a VERY LARGE majority of abortions, are cases where the woman has not been subjected to such against her will(i.e. some kind of rape/incest case). In the eyes of a vegan, is the woman who sleeps around all the time and gets abortions just as morally reprehensible as someone who goes out hunting every month and eating hamburgers every single day?

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The fetus places an obligation on the woman. In the case of a woman wanting an abortion, that obligation is placed there against her will. Yes, she consented to having sex and a pregnancy is a very possible outcome of that, but the fetus is definitely imposing itself on her against her will.

[Dan.]

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I dont think thats what he means, but maybe. What I think he is saying is that, while he supports your freedom to eat meat, he only does that as a 'lesser of two evils' thing. You eating meat is still 'wrong,' its just not as wrong as him infringing on your rights. But abortion isn't wrong.

At least, thats how I would see it if I were a vegan.

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See, that's what I'm wondering. Dan, do you agree with this above statement, or would you consider abortion to be a kind of "the lesser of two evils", with infringing on a woman's rights being worse than the abortion itself.

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Right, it's a "lesser of evils" thing for me. Anyone who says there's absolutely nothing wrong with abortion is lying to themselves, imo. There are cells dividing, and you're stopping it. That's killing some sort of a life--human or otherwise. But far be it from me to impugn someone from deciding what she should do with her body.

Similarly with being a vegan. I don't agree with killing animals for food, and I may try to educate people around me as to why I feel that way. But I'll never grab the burger out of your hand or spray-paint your fur coat.

Basically, I'm a staunch believer in individual autonomy, so long as what you're doing doesn't affect me.

[vhawk01]

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Its tricky, because I think I'm not being exactly clear what I mean here. Abortion isn't wrong, because we should all be free to accept or reject any obligations placed on us by others against our will . Removing a fetus and letting die is sad, but it isn't wrong. Just like shooting someone and killing them to defend myself is sad, but it isn't wrong. (Please note I am NOT comparing abortion to self-defense, simply trying to show how something can be sad but still not wrong). I would think that, as a vegan, I would see meat-eaters as WRONG, not just sad. It would just be a wrong that I could not think of a good way of righting that wouldn't be even worse. So I would still tell you that what you are doing is wrong, when you eat meat. I wouldn't say the same to the woman looking for an abortion. I wouldn't want to force EITHER of you, though.

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Hang on though, a VERY LARGE majority of abortions, are cases where the woman has not been subjected to such against her will(i.e. some kind of rape/incest case). In the eyes of a vegan, is the woman who sleeps around all the time and gets abortions just as morally reprehensible as someone who goes out hunting every month and eating hamburgers every single day?

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I disagree with this, but that is for another thread(or like 4 or 5 recent ones). I think that most abortions fit this description. Its not really the point here.

[vhawk01]

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I dont think thats what he means, but maybe. What I think he is saying is that, while he supports your freedom to eat meat, he only does that as a 'lesser of two evils' thing. You eating meat is still 'wrong,' its just not as wrong as him infringing on your rights. But abortion isn't wrong.

At least, thats how I would see it if I were a vegan.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, that's what I'm wondering. Dan, do you agree with this above statement, or would you consider abortion to be a kind of "the lesser of two evils", with infringing on a woman's rights being worse than the abortion itself.

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Right, it's a "lesser of evils" thing for me. Anyone who says there's absolutely nothing wrong with abortion is lying to themselves, imo. There are cells dividing, and you're stopping it. That's killing some sort of a life--human or otherwise. But far be it from me to impugn someone from deciding what she should do with her body.

Similarly with being a vegan. I don't agree with killing animals for food, and I may try to educate people around me as to why I feel that way. But I'll never grab the burger out of your hand or spray-paint your fur coat.

Basically, I'm a staunch believer in individual autonomy, so long as what you're doing doesn't affect me.

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Lets be as clear as we can about things, and not misuse terminology. Are you opposed to me pulling weeds in my garden? Harvesting corn and wheat? All of those are composed of cells that are dividing. We are terminating life in all those cases. You would say "Anyone who thinks there is nothing wrong with farming is deluding themselves?"

[Vagos]

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Right, it's a "lesser of evils" thing for me. Anyone who says there's absolutely nothing wrong with abortion is lying to themselves, imo. There are cells dividing, and you're stopping it. That's killing some sort of a life--human or otherwise. But far be it from me to impugn someone from deciding what she should do with her body.

Similarly with being a vegan. I don't agree with killing animals for food, and I may try to educate people around me as to why I feel that way. But I'll never grab the burger out of your hand or spray-paint your fur coat.

Basically, I'm a staunch believer in individual autonomy, so long as what you're doing doesn't affect me.

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Ok, that makes perfect sense to me. I guess I've just been speaking with some other vegans lately who just have no moral qualms with abortion whatsoever and it seems (to me anyways) more the standard than the exception. But perhaps it is more divided than I thought.

[Dan.]

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Lets be as clear as we can about things, and not misuse terminology. Are you opposed to me pulling weeds in my garden? Harvesting corn and wheat? All of those are composed of cells that are dividing. We are terminating life in all those cases. You would say "Anyone who thinks there is nothing wrong with farming is deluding themselves?"

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In theory? Yes. And some Fruitarians may agree in practice, eating only fruit that has fallen from the plant. But in my life, there's obviously lines that must be drawn as far as acceptability of destroying life. And destroying plant life in order that I might eat is acceptable.