30/60 turn spot - Page 2

private joker · #1 11-23-2007, 04:53 AM

I just saw this thread. I bet the turn, call the c/r, and river a flush.

Nate. · #2 11-23-2007, 12:28 AM

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I raise AcTc in HJ, HU w/ bb, flop 96c5c.

He c/c.

Turn is offsuit 7. (9657 board). He c/r.

I b/3bet. spew? plan for hand?

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why did you bet the turn?

3betting is amazingly bad.

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Let me explain.

When he calls the flop on this board, he either has (a) a pair (b) a club draw (c) a gutshot or (d) nothing. When the turn card comes, he still has all of these things except for (c). It is quite possible that he is bluffing with something dumb like QT on this turn, but if he is, you have the best hand and have him drawing near dead. Let him barrel away. The only thing that happens when you 3bet the turn is that he either folds a worse hand or caps it with a straight. This is basically what happens when you bet, too. Check and take the free card.

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PokerBob--

Pairs sometimes fold. Club draws always call. Many of his nothing hands are drawing substantially live against us.

In particular, if you disagree that pairs sometimes fold, you cannot dispute that he will have sometimes made very thin preflop/flop calls with nothing hands we don't dominate. If you don't disagree that pairs sometimes fold--and I've played with calling stations of every stripe and basically all of them fold some pairs here--then a bet is mandatory.

--Nate

Nate. · #3 11-23-2007, 12:39 AM

All--

OK, so since so many people here seemed to feel so strongly about checking, and I think it's terrible, I just asked a very good player and even better poker theorist about this hand.

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bulldogs1729 (11:28:51 PM): hey, happy thanksgiving. quick poker question if you have a minute/ are around.
Very Good Player and Even Better Poker Theorist (11:33:02 PM): yeah what up
bulldogs1729 (11:33:10 PM): limit hold'em
bulldogs1729 (11:33:14 PM): you open the cutoff with Ac Tc
bulldogs1729 (11:33:16 PM): BB calls
bulldogs1729 (11:33:20 PM): flop 9h 6c 5c
bulldogs1729 (11:33:22 PM): BB ch-call
bulldogs1729 (11:33:25 PM): turn 7d
bulldogs1729 (11:33:27 PM): BB checks, you?
VGPaEBPT (11:34:10 PM): bet
VGPaEBPT (11:34:15 PM): wait
VGPaEBPT (11:34:20 PM): is this a trick question?

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--Nate

Joe Tall · #4 11-23-2007, 05:31 AM

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All--

OK, so since so many people here seemed to feel so strongly about checking, and I think it's terrible, I just asked a very good player and even better poker theorist about this hand.

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bulldogs1729 (11:28:51 PM): hey, happy thanksgiving. quick poker question if you have a minute/ are around.
Very Good Player and Even Better Poker Theorist (11:33:02 PM): yeah what up
bulldogs1729 (11:33:10 PM): limit hold'em
bulldogs1729 (11:33:14 PM): you open the cutoff with Ac Tc
bulldogs1729 (11:33:16 PM): BB calls
bulldogs1729 (11:33:20 PM): flop 9h 6c 5c
bulldogs1729 (11:33:22 PM): BB ch-call
bulldogs1729 (11:33:25 PM): turn 7d
bulldogs1729 (11:33:27 PM): BB checks, you?
VGPaEBPT (11:34:10 PM): bet
VGPaEBPT (11:34:15 PM): wait
VGPaEBPT (11:34:20 PM): is this a trick question?

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--Nate

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Your friend should change his IM-name.

npknhldr · #5 11-28-2007, 02:57 AM

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I raise AcTc in HJ, HU w/ bb, flop 96c5c.

He c/c.

Turn is offsuit 7. (9657 board). He c/r.

I b/3bet. spew? plan for hand?

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why did you bet the turn?

3betting is amazingly bad.

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Let me explain.

When he calls the flop on this board, he either has (a) a pair (b) a club draw (c) a gutshot or (d) nothing. When the turn card comes, he still has all of these things except for (c). It is quite possible that he is bluffing with something dumb like QT on this turn, but if he is, you have the best hand and have him drawing near dead. Let him barrel away. The only thing that happens when you 3bet the turn is that he either folds a worse hand or caps it with a straight. This is basically what happens when you bet, too. Check and take the free card.

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OP here;

lot's of interesting talk btw/n checking behind turn or leading again.

What I'm still unsure about is the turn spot given the fact that I bet/got raised.

Now there's 6BB in the pot, and I'm thinking his range for c/r is wide (including straights of course) b/c he puts me on weak holdings / air.

So, this small pot is now worth taking, no? Isn't there value in 3bet semi-bluffing where FE must be huge? I mean, what can he call with? What will he call/ fold river UI with? Of course I figure he'll cap with a straight (or at least call/lead river) so since I have a tight image and I'm opening in l.p., if he doesn't have an 8 I'm winning this pot, aren't I (maybe NLHE viewpoint here, but I'm pretty sure no one thinks I'm 3bet bluffing here, and will feel good about folding 2pair type hands)?

As for river, I bet a flush/straight, check behind an ace (or value-bet?), and bluff bet unless i'm sure he's calling (physically).

So, I agree there's a good argument made by PBob to c turn, but given that I didn't, should I turn my hand into a bluff and try to get those 6BBs (or river flush obv plan b)?

PokerBob · #6 11-28-2007, 06:28 AM

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So, I agree there's a good argument made by PBob to c turn, but given that I didn't, should I turn my hand into a bluff and try to get those 6BBs (or river flush obv plan b)?

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no. 3betting the turn got very little discussion because it is very bad and basically everyone agrees.

Nate. · #7 11-28-2007, 02:43 PM

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So, I agree there's a good argument made by PBob to c turn, but given that I didn't, should I turn my hand into a bluff and try to get those 6BBs (or river flush obv plan b)?

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no. 3betting the turn got very little discussion because it is very bad and basically everyone agrees.

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OP--

Yeah, remember that a lot of people don't think that Villain will fold any pair here. I happen to think they're mistaken in general, but certainly I don't think a 3-bet has "a lot of fold equity." If there were a solid chance you could steal this substantial pot, then of course we'd recommend it. As it stands, you won't recover the extra BB or two you put in by 3-betting, and it probably won't be close.

--Nate

*TT* · #8 11-22-2007, 04:49 PM

not sure what is worse, betting the turn or 3-betting the turn. both actions were horrible.

*TT* · #9 11-23-2007, 05:26 AM

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not sure what is worse, betting the turn or 3-betting the turn. both actions were horrible.

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um... did the OP change the hand? It was a rainbow flop when I made my post.

Garland · #10 11-22-2007, 07:46 PM

3-betting is really bad. You're going to cost yourself 2 more big bets for your draw if 4-bet by an 8.

I don't see why so many people say betting the turn is so bad sans read on BB and being heads up. It's only a "bad bet" because of the check-raise, which we didn't know was coming. If BB folded what could have been overs, a small pocket pair, or a piece of the board with no draw, the result would have been a good one (and we probably wouldn't see this post). It's a semi-bluff turn bet, but don't take it to the extreme by 3-betting your gutshot+nut flush draw. It's only marginally pretty on the turn, especially since it's almost a lock that BB has one of your outs.

Garland