Understanding "Small Pot" and "Value Bet" conflict - Page 2

Gobgogbog · #11 07-12-2006, 09:34 AM

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However, against the guy who called 3 big post flop bets from me yesterday with TPPK when I had a set, I should be looking to play the same way with TP only?

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Not really. If that was the minimum hand he will call down like that with, and if he might just let you do the betting for him with better hands, then TPTK isn't really ahead of his calling down range, is it?

derosnec · #12 07-12-2006, 09:59 AM

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I have a problem with this too. Say you have a big overpair, or a big TPTK, or a weak two pair, the board is full of draws and there are a lot of people in the pot... In order to protect your hand, you need to be making big bets

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With big draws and you with TPTK, you will lose more than 50% of the time.

An example:

Hero: Ad Qh
Opponent 1: 9d Th
Opponent 2: As 4s

Flop: Qs Js 7c

Survey says:

pokenum -h ad qh - 9d th - as 4s -- qs js 7c
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Qs Js 7c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad Qh 373 41.31 524 58.03 6 0.66 0.416
9d Th 183 20.27 720 79.73 0 0.00 0.203
As 4s 341 37.76 556 61.57 6 0.66 0.381

With top two pair on that same flop, you will lose more than 50% of the time.

pokenum -h qh jc - 9d th - as 4s -- qs js 7c
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing Qs Js 7c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Jc Qh 417 46.18 486 53.82 0 0.00 0.462
9d Th 155 17.17 748 82.83 0 0.00 0.172
As 4s 331 36.66 572 63.34 0 0.00 0.367

Georgia Avenue · #13 07-12-2006, 11:58 AM

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Pot control is really important, when you're playing deep stacked 10-20.

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Bump because this provocative line never got addressed...What do you mean exactly? Any of these could apply:

1. Pot control is unimportant in SSNL--getting value is more relevant
2. Pot control is unimportant in short-stack SSNL--If you somehow find yourself at a deep stacked 1/2 game live or something, start thinking about it.
3. Pot control is actually very important in SSNL--whether you are short, or your opponents, or both--Jamougha was just kidding.

Any of these could apply at any time to your particular table, but when in doubt a lot of good players seem to advocate thin value considerations over avoiding bloating the pot etc. Any consensus here?

4_2_it · #14 07-12-2006, 12:06 PM

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If you have to ask if you want the pot to be big, you don't want a big pot.

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in no limit sometimes u must risk giving free cards in order to control the pot.

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These are often overlooked concepts that take on more importance at each level.

poincaraux · #15 07-12-2006, 12:21 PM

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in no limit sometimes u must risk giving free cards in order to control the pot.

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Where were you last week? You could have at least sent me a PM before I blew off 2/7 of my FT roll.

I've been trying this more in the last couple of days, both giving free cards for pot control and (less frequently) checking good hands for balance. I think it's bumping my winrate up. It also seems to mean that I'm facing more bluffs and thin value-bets, which is interesting to adjust to.

Jamougha · #16 07-12-2006, 12:38 PM

Georgia,

I mean that the main thing at SSNL is getting value on your good hands. This is especially true with 100BB or less, where you're rarely making a big error by going to the felt with strong overpairs or a strong TPTK, especially when you're the one doing the betting.

Pot control is not a hugely important concept at SSNL IMO. The main things people seem to screw up are, not getting enough value on hands and not having a good understanding of whether their hand is strong or marginal given the board and their opponent's hand range/calling range (e.g. AA can be either a lock or a marginal hand).

kcb · #17 07-12-2006, 12:53 PM

Some interesting ideas in here. Wouldn't pot control be just as important in non-deep stack situations?

Jamougha · #18 07-12-2006, 01:29 PM

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Some interesting ideas in here. Wouldn't pot control be just as important in non-deep stack situations?

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No. To give an example, say you have 20BB effective stacks, and you have KQ on a K76 board in an 8BB pot. You might as well have the nuts. If you have 70BB you have something to think about and you can easily make large errors. If you have 250BB you now potentially need to be careful how you build the pot with with 76, especially against a good opponent.

younghov17 · #19 07-12-2006, 04:22 PM

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in no limit sometimes u must risk giving free cards in order to control the pot.

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By free, do you really mean 0 or do you mean small bets that won't sufficiently protect your hand, but are still better than offering infinite odds?

The little green book and the new miller/sklansky nl book are in the mail.. hopefully they can help me sort this out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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i mean free, making a small bet is just encouraging someone to test it with middle pair/top pair crap kicker.

younghov17 · #20 07-12-2006, 04:26 PM

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Maybe this hand has some relevant points that I have questions on too. I had been raising a fair bit prior to this and getting folds to cbets so I wasn't surprised to get some playback and expected villain to have a Q, maybe a good 8 or better. When the board paired I am even more WA/WB so I tried to keep the pot size reasonable by just calling the turn despite the FD out there (I didn't think he would be the FD twice). I think I am still ahead of villain's range here and I probably missed a river value bet when he bets small however if he pushes I probably need to call. Questions - Call on turn ok? Need to value bet the river?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($63.73)
Hero ($63.04)
MP ($30.55)
Button ($52.30)
SB ($19.27)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($4.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.5, BB raises to $7, Hero calls $3.50.

Turn: ($18.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

River: ($34.25) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $8, Hero calls $8.

Final Pot: $50.25

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no this is a hand where you should be looking to get more money in. generally when a straight is impossible, fd is out and the only hand you can lose to is a set, you should look to build the pot assuming you only have 100 bb and he issnt an extreme nit.

again this isnt a set in stone rule but your will be v tp/fd a huge majority of the time with a set making up a very small minority.