having a problem with resteals - Page 2

MJBuddy · #11 06-19-2007, 02:05 PM

If a short stack is in the hand, I avoid any kind of moves at all. They can pretty much call down for value in the face of aggression. I target big stacks and middle stacks.

Sherman · #12 06-19-2007, 06:57 PM

All of these hands were in the same 4/180 tournament.

Hand 1:
In this hand, the Button had been very aggressive. Especially in LP. I knew at some point I would make a stand against him. I usually wouldn't make this kind of move early in a tournament, but I thought I would be with this guy for a while and wanted to let him know that my blinds were not free for the taking anymore. I was a bit unfortunate in that the tight BB woke up with a hand, however, I was very fortunate to outdraw him.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t2305)
Hero (t3190)
BB (t1155)
UTG (t2410)
UTG+1 (t1785)
MP1 (t1210)
MP2 (t2800)
MP3 (t3095)
CO (t4190)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
6 folds, Button raises to t150, Hero raises to t550, BB raises to t1155, Button folds, Hero calls t605.

Flop: (t2460) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t2460) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t2460) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t2460

Results in white below: 
Hero has 6h 7h (two pair, sevens and twos).
BB has Ah Td (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero wins t2460. 

Hand 2
Here is a type of re-steal hand (actually a semi-bluff). CO in this hand was very aggressive both pre and post flop. Actually, I had planned on re-stealing against his PF raise. A bit surprised he only called this time. Anyhow, I called on the flop with the intention of check/raise shoving the turn.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP2 (t3900)
MP3 (t2750)
CO (t9750)
Button (t2665)
Hero (t3685)
BB (t4390)
UTG (t1865)
UTG+1 (t2870)
MP1 (t2035)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO calls t100, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t300) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets t400, Hero calls t400, BB folds.

Turn: (t1100) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t500, Hero raises to t3185, CO folds.

Final Pot: t4785

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t4785. 

Hand 3
Here is another re-steal hand later on. Actually, I thought I played this on poorest of all because I didn't have a great read on villain yet. However, I sensed weakness in his PF min-raise and that if I put him in for his stack he would fold. Well he didn't, but somehow I actually had the best and got lucky to win.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP2 (t6600)
CO (t4100)
Button (t4601)
SB (t3315)
Hero (t5225)
UTG (t10400)
UTG+1 (t3820)
MP1 (t3865)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Button raises to t800, 1 fold, Hero raises to t5200, Button calls t3776 (All-In).

Flop: (t9926) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t9926) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t9926) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t9926

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qd 2d (one pair, queens).
Button has Jc 9h (high card, queen).
Outcome: Hero wins t9926. 

Hand 4
In this hand I am facing the same villain that I faced in hand 1. Recall that he saw me show down 67s earlier. However, I had let him steal from me a few times already at this table and figured he would raise again here. Notice my cards are pretty irrelevant here.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (7 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP2 (t11640)
CO (t14335)
Button (t14997)
SB (t6810)
Hero (t16971)
UTG (t9180)
MP1 (t31586)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Button raises to t1650, 1 fold, Hero raises to t4650, Button folds.

Final Pot: t6550

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t6550. 

Hand 5
Here is that same villain again. This time I have a real hand though. Because all the effective stacks were tiny, I just shoved PF. Unfortunately, villain folded again.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero (t51631)
SB (t3685)
BB (t6665)
UTG (t53169)
UTG+1 (t4113)
MP1 (t16893)
MP2 (t6867)
CO (t11222)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, CO raises to t2475, Hero raises to t51631, 2 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: t54556

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t54556. 

Hand 6
Here again I "re-steal" however once again I have a strong hand. Again the BB wakes up with a big hand, but I am lucky enough to win another. And I show down a strong hand...if I re-steal later those at this table will remember this.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero (t46871)
BB (t13310)
UTG (t49180)
MP (t36654)
Button (t16101)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises to t3200, Hero raises to t46796, BB calls t11635 (All-In), Button folds.

Flop: (t61856) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t61856) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t61856) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t61856

Results in white below: 
Hero has Tc Th (four of a kind, tens).
BB has Kh Ad (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Hero wins t61856. 

Hand 7
Here is one from the FT that I like to call, "Things you can do with a Big Stack." Notice that when this hand starts, there is one player who is very short. That is great news for me with a big stack and terrible news for players on medium stacks who are waiting for him to bust to make their move. So I smooth call in position here hoping to take this away on the flop because he doesn't want to bust before the short stack. Luckily, it worked perfectly.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t2000 (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero (t88357)
SB (t18155)
BB (t62522)
UTG (t43657)
MP (t49383)
CO (t7926)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t6000, 2 folds, Hero calls t6000, 2 folds.

Flop: (t12500) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets t8000, UTG folds.

Final Pot: t20500

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins t20500. 

Anyhow, I hope some of these help. As for some running themes here are a few:

1) Make sure the people you re-steal from are aggressively raising in LP. If they aren't be very careful about re-stealing.
2) For the most part, your cards don't matter.
3) You have to make value raises with your big hands too to make your re-steals seem legit.
4) Run Good with your re-steals.

Sherman

PS - Although these hands were all from the same tournament, they were over 297 total hands. Actually, in this specific tournament, I felt that I made these plays more than usual because of the specific players. On average, I don't make these plays very often.

Uitje · #13 06-19-2007, 08:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if I re-steal later those at this table will remember this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know how much this is true in a 4/180
I kinda feel lost when seeing your resteals because I cant really put them in perspective. I'd like to see some history of a whole tournament with some resteals and some comments, but I really like your post!

FWIW, I shove hand one, because he might be the type of lagtard that thinks he has FE with 3 betting (IE the complete blind aggressive moron), while you dont change the range of a good aggro player that much by commit raising.

I like your line in hand 2 against aggro villain.

Hand 3: yeah minraise is either monster or cheap steal attempt at these levels, but serious wtf at this hero call.

Hand 4 brings up an important point. You let him steal your blind earlier to give your reraise more credibility. I tend to do this alot too, but I think sometimes I take it too far. Really, folding all those hands and then raising doesnt change his range so much, he might think you are getting fed up with the steals and resteal very light, instead of you woken up with a monster. I tend to resteal the very first LP raise from a thinking player just cause he knows I havent seen him steal before so he'll give me some credibility, and for narrowing down his range some later on.

Hand 5 and 6 are standard ofcourse, though I understand you put them down for metagame. BTW notice what a big hand BB showed to call your resteal. When I watch my tournament histories and look at the endgame, I really feel like I am getting looked up way to tight mostly. Ofcourse sometimes you have a table who'll call you with A4 after they raised MP1 and you shoved from button with JJ, because they feel you are pushing every hand, but well they dont see spots.

And I ofcourse love hand 7

MJBuddy · #14 06-19-2007, 11:22 PM

Actually since switching to my LAG play, I don't let resteals stop me at all. Someone pushed back, I fold. Repeat next hand.

I'll post a HH one day of one of my mini-fun-MTT. Getting people pissed at my playing is how I build my stack.

ChipSpeak · #15 06-20-2007, 12:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Resteals are awesome.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

[/ QUOTE ]

That is an awesome thread to read.

I disagree with the play many of the examples given here. Many examples given are result oriented.

Hand 1
"In this hand, the Button had been very aggressive. Especially in LP. I knew at some point I would make a stand against him"
It would seem more logical to make your stand in one of the 7 hands you have position on him.
You are inflating a pot to 23 bb's OOP if the button smooth calls. What is your line if he does with this flop? You have 60+ BB's, OOP, who cares if he steals the blinds with this stack? This is no spot to get tricky.

"I was a bit unfortunate in that the tight BB woke up with a hand, however, I was very fortunate to outdraw him."
He called off 23 bb's on a raise and a RR with ATo, he's not tight, he's dumb.

Hand 2
Read play, Well played, but is not related in any way to a re-steal.

Hand 3
The min raise is usually tricky, but why do you feel he will fold with 20% + of his stack in the pot? This more likely to be a monster getting action than some weird steal.

Hand 4
I'm ok with it as a read play, but with no antes, I think cards are a little more important with 20 bb's.

Hand 5
This is a value bet, not a steal.

Hand 6
"Here again I "re-steal" however once again I have a strong hand"
This is not restealing, this is value betting, a steal relates to situational plays, made against aggressive players, usually with substandard hands NOT looking for action, this is a standard re-raise.

Hand 7
where is the first 10-20 bbb example of a re-steal.. when they are needed....?

The "Resteals are awesome" post is actually on topic as well [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Sherman · #16 06-20-2007, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Resteals are awesome.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

[/ QUOTE ]

That is an awesome thread to read.

I disagree with the play many of the examples given here. Many examples given are result oriented.

Hand 1
"In this hand, the Button had been very aggressive. Especially in LP. I knew at some point I would make a stand against him"
It would seem more logical to make your stand in one of the 7 hands you have position on him.
You are inflating a pot to 23 bb's OOP if the button smooth calls. What is your line if he does with this flop? You have 60+ BB's, OOP, who cares if he steals the blinds with this stack? This is no spot to get tricky.

"I was a bit unfortunate in that the tight BB woke up with a hand, however, I was very fortunate to outdraw him."
He called off 23 bb's on a raise and a RR with ATo, he's not tight, he's dumb.

Hand 2
Read play, Well played, but is not related in any way to a re-steal.

Hand 3
The min raise is usually tricky, but why do you feel he will fold with 20% + of his stack in the pot? This more likely to be a monster getting action than some weird steal.

Hand 4
I'm ok with it as a read play, but with no antes, I think cards are a little more important with 20 bb's.

Hand 5
This is a value bet, not a steal.

Hand 6
"Here again I "re-steal" however once again I have a strong hand"
This is not restealing, this is value betting, a steal relates to situational plays, made against aggressive players, usually with substandard hands NOT looking for action, this is a standard re-raise.

Hand 7
where is the first 10-20 bbb example of a re-steal.. when they are needed....?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm too tired to discuss any of this tonight. Will tomorrow.

FuriousD · #17 06-20-2007, 03:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was a bit unfortunate in that the tight BB woke up with a hand, however, I was very fortunate to outdraw him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would a tight player actually do this with ATo assuming he has the same reads as you? Could that be a good play in this spot? I think I fold ATo there pretty quickly.

Sherman · #18 06-20-2007, 11:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with the play many of the examples given here. Many examples given are result oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I disagree with you. Fair enough.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1
"In this hand, the Button had been very aggressive. Especially in LP. I knew at some point I would make a stand against him"
It would seem more logical to make your stand in one of the 7 hands you have position on him.
You are inflating a pot to 23 bb's OOP if the button smooth calls. What is your line if he does with this flop? You have 60+ BB's, OOP, who cares if he steals the blinds with this stack? This is no spot to get tricky.

[/ QUOTE ]

While it might seem more logical to make a stand when I have position, he is only raising light when he opens in LP. He isn't raising light on many of the hands I have position on him. Essentially, I know he is raising light enough that he is giving chips away.
You are right. If the button smooth calls, I am in trouble. However, it was very obvious to me given his play at the table thus far that he raised light and folded to re-raises very often, so I wasn't too worried about him smooth calling here.

I honestly don't think I was being tricky in this spot. I really must emphasize that this is a very special opponent. I almost never ever make this sort of play early in a tournament, but it was very obvious to me that he was folding a high % of the time here.

[ QUOTE ]
"I was a bit unfortunate in that the tight BB woke up with a hand, however, I was very fortunate to outdraw him."
He called off 23 bb's on a raise and a RR with ATo, he's not tight, he's dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was he dumb or smart? If he was paying attention at all, he knew the Button was raising light. So long as he perceived me as a smart player, he could have also known I was raising light. In which case AT is very favorable against our ranges. BTW, yes it would be dumb to put in a third raise PF with AT if the raises had come for EP or MP, but when they come from the button (or is notably aggressive) and the SB, it is a very different story.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2
Read play, Well played, but is not related in any way to a re-steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are right. It isn't a re-steal but it is in a related vein of building a big stack and dealing with aggressive opponents on your right. I mentioned that I had planned on re-stealing his expected raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3
The min raise is usually tricky, but why do you feel he will fold with 20% + of his stack in the pot? This more likely to be a monster getting action than some weird steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't recall all the information that occured before this hand which gave me my read, but I do know that my read was that his min-raise was pretty weak. Even if it was 20% of his stack. He seemed like the type of player who was afraid to bust. I thought it was very odd that he called with J9 and out of character for him. Maybe he was tired of people re-raising him and making him fold on the flop so he just put it in. I don't really know. However, I do know that I was concerned that he likely had a "monster" here. But that had more to do with the particular player than the situation (min-raise) in general.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4
I'm ok with it as a read play, but with no antes, I think cards are a little more important with 20 bb's.

[/ QUOTE ]

??? Why do antes make a difference? The antes online are relatively negligible. My cards aren't important here. If he calls or shoves, I am giving up anyway. It was a flat re-steal with only a fold as a backup plan.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 5
This is a value bet, not a steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. I didn't mean to infer it was a re-steal. In fact, I implied that it was a value bet when I said "unfortunately, villain folded." I put this hand in here for a few reasons. 1) To show that you obviously have to raise with your good hands too. 2) Because it falls under the category of dealing with an aggressive villain on your right. 3) Because I posted every hand from the tournament in which I had to deal with an aggressive villain to my right.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 6
"Here again I "re-steal" however once again I have a strong hand"
This is not restealing, this is value betting, a steal relates to situational plays, made against aggressive players, usually with substandard hands NOT looking for action, this is a standard re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Notice I put "re-steal" in quotes. Again, I am implying that this is a bet for value. Hoping that my previous re-steals and overall aggressive play will get me action. Again, this hand is posted for the reasons mentioned above. But I appreciate you defining re-steal for me.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 7
where is the first 10-20 bbb example of a re-steal.. when they are needed....?

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG! You can only re-steal with 10-20BBs? I did not know this! I wish someone would have told me that was a rule.

Ok, seriously, the 10-20BB rule is more like, don't resteal with less than that. It is certainly ok to three-bet a light raising villain with a deeper stack.

Overall, I realize my mistake was in not defining the overall theme of this post. It wasn't so much about re-stealing as about "dealing with aggressive villain's on your right." Sometimes this constitutes re-stealing. Sometimes calling in position. Sometimes it constitutes building a sizeable pot and then semi-bluffing when the stack sizes get right. Of course it always constitutes value raising with your strong hands. Lastly, I want to emphasize again the critical importance of reads. Without reads, every play I made here is simply a spew.

Sherman · #19 06-20-2007, 11:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was a bit unfortunate in that the tight BB woke up with a hand, however, I was very fortunate to outdraw him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would a tight player actually do this with ATo assuming he has the same reads as you? Could that be a good play in this spot? I think I fold ATo there pretty quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I answered this in another post, but yes this is either a really terrible play or a really good one. If he is really paying close attention, he knows the button is raising light and isn't concerned with him. If he knows that I know the button is raising light, my range becomes looser and his AT fairs well against that range. Is that what is going on here? I don't know. Maybe the BB is just a bigger donk and less of a nit than I thought he was.

Sherman · #20 06-20-2007, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I kinda feel lost when seeing your resteals because I cant really put them in perspective. I'd like to see some history of a whole tournament with some resteals and some comments, but I really like your post!

[/ QUOTE ]

That is always a problem when posting hands that are heavily based on reads.

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I shove hand one, because he might be the type of lagtard that thinks he has FE with 3 betting (IE the complete blind aggressive moron), while you dont change the range of a good aggro player that much by commit raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

In hand 1, I really didn't want to go to the felt against the button's range even though it is wide. I would have folded to more resistance from him. BTW, the call of the BB's shove is obvious given the pot odds...just realized I didn't mention that in the first post.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 4 brings up an important point. You let him steal your blind earlier to give your reraise more credibility. I tend to do this alot too, but I think sometimes I take it too far. Really, folding all those hands and then raising doesnt change his range so much, he might think you are getting fed up with the steals and resteal very light, instead of you woken up with a monster. I tend to resteal the very first LP raise from a thinking player just cause he knows I havent seen him steal before so he'll give me some credibility, and for narrowing down his range some later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only problem is that it is hard to know if a player is stealing or just raising a legitimate hand the first time he raises. You get a better feel for his range as you see him play more hands and show some down.