4/8: Pocket 10's curse or blessing-

[Niediam]

None of the hands that you really want to fold on the flop (1 pair, gushots, and 2 overcards) are going to fold nomatter what you do on the flop. You should only be raising if your intent is to knock weaker draws (1 over card and backdoor draws) or you feel it's more profitable to push your equity edge now than to try and protect your hand on the turn.

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
None of the hands that you really want to fold on the flop (1 pair, gushots, and 2 overcards) are going to fold nomatter what you do on the flop. You should only be raising if your intent is to knock weaker draws (1 over card and backdoor draws) or you feel it's more profitable to push your equity edge now than to try and protect your hand on the turn.

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You're misapplying a concept from SSHE, which isn't surprising since its almost always misapplied on these boards.

If you have an equity advantage, you should almost always raise.

I made that its own paragraph because its both simple and true. I'm not sure why people misunderstand this concept so often. In this hand, on the flop, you probably have a signifigant equity advantage given your opponents' ranges and actions.

You can find the concept on page 185 of SSHE Ed Miller and co say: "Normally if you have an edge you should exploit it by betting or raising. The larger your edge, the more important it is to push. When your edge is small, however, you don't lose much if you pass on it."

Preach on Ed.

He goes on to describe a game that in no way resembles the game OP is playing in. And gives two overpair examples, one where you should raise and one where you should call. The examples do not resemble OP's hand (Other than the fact that in the 'call' example, hero is holding TT without a backdoor draw).

FWIW I pokerstoved this hand with guesstimates of everyone's range, and we have ~30% equity in a five way pot--way more than enough to raise the flop.


Oh and the turn is another easy raise, IMO. What has anyone done to show they have a nine? Nothing. Spraying the extra bet will win you this pot way more than enough to make it worth it. If you want to force your opponents to 'make mistakes' this is the spot to do it as you will get people folding overcards when they shouldn't or wouldn't if they knew your hand.

Edited for grammar.

[BigBadBabar]

jjh well put sir

in this hand, first time i'm seeing it, i raise flop and i raise turn

[Niediam]

It's like you are just ignoring the secions in SSH and HEPFAP that say in a large pot you should pass on betting/raising the flop if it won't protect your hand and you are likely to to be able to protect it with a turn raise. (I'm assuming you know what I'm referring to but if you would like I can find page numbers.)

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
It's like you are just ignoring the secions in SSH and HEPFAP that say in a large pot you should pass on betting/raising the flop if it won't protect your hand and you are likely to to be able to protect it with a turn raise. (I'm assuming you know what I'm referring to but if you would like I can find page numbers.)

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It's like you are just ignoring all of HEFAP and SSHE where it says to push equity edges. It does say that you can pass on small equity edges to try and exploit larger ones on a bigger street; however, this is not a small equity edge. You have a drunk guy betting and raising at every oportunity with ATC. You have a substantial edge here and you should push it.

You should not blindly just call with vulnerable hands in big pots because you can't protect your hand. Instead, you should asses your opponent's range and think about what your equity is against that range. If you have a large expection (such as being 30% to win a hand in a five way pot), you should raise. If your edge is only slightly positive or zero, there are times when you should wait. Why? Because pushing these small edges isn't as important as pushing large edges. But if you pass on too many signifigant edges, you will lose money.

[Niediam]

Please look at the example in SSH starting on p. 163 and explain to me how that one differs from the hand in this thread. Thanks.

[BigBadBabar]

lolll

[JJH3984]

[ QUOTE ]
Please look at the example in SSH starting on p. 163 and explain to me how that one differs from the hand in this thread. Thanks.

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Drunk villian capping every street with 6 high. I hope you see why this fact alters the example drastically. You're welcome.

[Frond]

Something that I have thought about regarding this side discussion of SSHE when you can't protect your hand is that how many players at our live low limit tables are even considering pot odds when making their decisions whether they should call our bet or raise getting 15:1 , 10.5:1 or 4.1:1??? Hardly any of course. All they know is that have a drawing hand and many times just decide to go all the way whether you bet or whatever, not even knowing that they may be making a correct or incorrect call with their hand.

Reg this hand and OP's description of this drunken spaz donator, I raise the turn here, if he 3 bets us I call. River if he bets I call. Doesn't mean that the spaz can't have a big hand here but given his profile and past hand range you more often than not have him beaten.

[HollywoodDB]

[ QUOTE ]
It's like you are just ignoring the secions in SSH and HEPFAP that say in a large pot you should pass on betting/raising the flop if it won't protect your hand and you are likely to to be able to protect it with a turn raise. (I'm assuming you know what I'm referring to but if you would like I can find page numbers.)

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I agree with Niediam. I think our edge on that flop vs. 3 opponets (granted one of them is nutso)is not very large. I think there is a similiar example in ssh but we have KK (?)Can't remember exactly. I think we are easliy up against at least 3 OC's not to mention flush and/or straight draws that can correctly call the flop.