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#11
07-26-2007, 12:52 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
Well doesn't the person who spoke have a responsibility to speak clearly? [/ QUOTE ] Come now, that's a little extreme for the OP. She could have had her head turned and been saying hello to someone. I don't think the responsibility is on me to make sure everybody at my table can understand everything I say at all times, just so one of them can't say, "oh, I thought you said all-in!" I mean, I certainly do pay attention to action and keep it clean, but it's impossible for me to make sure that everybody can understand me at all times, as that would require me verifying that everyone heard me on everything I said, and then perhaps verifying that they understood I was verifying, etc etc. Yeah, that's silly, but that's the logical path of your statement. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I say let them continue play. Too bad for the guy who exposed. In no way is this a misdeal. Button moves for the next hand, regardless of decision. Allowing a misdeal is opening the door wide to angle-shooting. 
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#12
07-26-2007, 01:36 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] because usually the person who says something knows for sure what he said... the person who hears something can usually mishear. I think the person who actually heard the other one say all-in probaly indeed heard that and that's why they were adamant. I've had someone tell me they heard me say something and were extremely adamant that's what I said... the 3 people sitting with us heard me say exactly what I said. I think you usually give credit to the person who are sure of what they said and not the person who thinks they heard something. [/ QUOTE ] Well doesn't the person who spoke have a responsibility to speak clearly? [/ QUOTE ] This is ridiculous. Nobody enunciates every word perfectly and even when they do, others can still hear something different. What are to do if the player has an accent? Unless there are people who can confirm the player said "all in," then it might as well have not happened. The caller needs to protect his action, especially on such a critical decision.
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#13
07-26-2007, 03:09 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the responsibility is on me to make sure everybody at my table can understand everything I say at all times [/ QUOTE ] Well you are wrong. You do have that responsibility. In any event my point is that there is no way make a fair decision now. Assuming that the player misheard, as opposed to that a player misspoke is just arbitrary, you may as well flip a coin.
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#14
07-26-2007, 03:12 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] because usually the person who says something knows for sure what he said... the person who hears something can usually mishear. I think the person who actually heard the other one say all-in probaly indeed heard that and that's why they were adamant. I've had someone tell me they heard me say something and were extremely adamant that's what I said... the 3 people sitting with us heard me say exactly what I said. I think you usually give credit to the person who are sure of what they said and not the person who thinks they heard something. [/ QUOTE ] Well doesn't the person who spoke have a responsibility to speak clearly? [/ QUOTE ] This is ridiculous. Nobody enunciates every word perfectly and even when they do, others can still hear something different. What are to do if the player has an accent? Unless there are people who can confirm the player said "all in," then it might as well have not happened. The caller needs to protect his action, especially on such a critical decision. [/ QUOTE ] How do 2 players heads up in a self dealt game without any third parties "protect" their action form the other player claiming he did or did not do something?
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#15
07-26-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I don't think the responsibility is on me to make sure everybody at my table can understand everything I say at all times [/ QUOTE ] Well you are wrong. You do have that responsibility. [/ QUOTE ] There is a big difference between being responsible for clearly articulating your actions, and being responsible to make sure that everyone understands those actions. In the latter case, you would need to ensure that people who did not speak English understood what you were saying, make sure that all of the players were paying attention, make sure that all ipods were at reasonable volume levels, ensure that everyone has good hearing, etc. Surely you are not implying that the burden is on the speaker to ensure these things vs making sure that a reasonable, able bodied, attentive, native speaker can understand their words.
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#16
07-26-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I don't think the responsibility is on me to make sure everybody at my table can understand everything I say at all times [/ QUOTE ] Well you are wrong. You do have that responsibility. [/ QUOTE ] There is a big difference between being responsible for clearly articulating your actions, and being responsible to make sure that everyone understands those actions. In the latter case, you would need to ensure that people who did not speak English understood what you were saying, make sure that all of the players were paying attention, make sure that all ipods were at reasonable volume levels, ensure that everyone has good hearing, etc. Surely you are not implying that the burden is on the speaker to ensure these things vs making sure that a reasonable, able bodied, attentive, native speaker can understand their words. [/ QUOTE ] You are right. But there is a burden on a speaker to do everything reasonable to insure that he can be understood.
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#17
07-26-2007, 03:44 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
You are right. But there is a burden on a speaker to do everything reasonable to insure that he can be understood. [/ QUOTE ] Then we do agree. [ QUOTE ] How do 2 players heads up in a self dealt game without any third parties "protect" their action form the other player claiming he did or did not do something? [/ QUOTE ] "What's the action to me?" "Did you just say 'all-in'?" "How much to me?" "Where's the action?" In the situation described, I'd say the person claiming something was said has the responsibility to verify before acting on it. Yes/no questions are very easy to construct. Rule #1, protect your hand. This falls well within that. I'm not sure why you're being so weirdly nitty in this thread. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#18
07-26-2007, 04:30 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] because usually the person who says something knows for sure what he said... the person who hears something can usually mishear. I think the person who actually heard the other one say all-in probaly indeed heard that and that's why they were adamant. I've had someone tell me they heard me say something and were extremely adamant that's what I said... the 3 people sitting with us heard me say exactly what I said. I think you usually give credit to the person who are sure of what they said and not the person who thinks they heard something. [/ QUOTE ] Well doesn't the person who spoke have a responsibility to speak clearly? [/ QUOTE ] This is ridiculous. Nobody enunciates every word perfectly and even when they do, others can still hear something different. What are to do if the player has an accent? Unless there are people who can confirm the player said "all in," then it might as well have not happened. The caller needs to protect his action, especially on such a critical decision. [/ QUOTE ] How do 2 players heads up in a self dealt game without any third parties "protect" their action form the other player claiming he did or did not do something? [/ QUOTE ] Very simply. Clarify what the other players action was before you act, and especially before revealing your hand.
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#19
07-26-2007, 04:32 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why you're being so weirdly nitty in this thread. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I'm a little surprised too. Psandman is usually far more reasonable. Maybe he got hijacked. As far as making sure others hear you correctly, yes I think you're responsible for doing your best job to be clear, but I don't think it takes any extra effort.
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#20
07-26-2007, 04:33 PM
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Re: It\'s heads up and one player said the other said all in-ruling?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] because usually the person who says something knows for sure what he said... the person who hears something can usually mishear. I think the person who actually heard the other one say all-in probaly indeed heard that and that's why they were adamant. I've had someone tell me they heard me say something and were extremely adamant that's what I said... the 3 people sitting with us heard me say exactly what I said. I think you usually give credit to the person who are sure of what they said and not the person who thinks they heard something. [/ QUOTE ] Well doesn't the person who spoke have a responsibility to speak clearly? [/ QUOTE ] This is ridiculous. Nobody enunciates every word perfectly and even when they do, others can still hear something different. What are to do if the player has an accent? Unless there are people who can confirm the player said "all in," then it might as well have not happened. The caller needs to protect his action, especially on such a critical decision. [/ QUOTE ] How do 2 players heads up in a self dealt game without any third parties "protect" their action form the other player claiming he did or did not do something? [/ QUOTE ] Very simply. Clarify what the other players action was before you act, and especially before revealing your hand. [/ QUOTE ] And then he says thats not what he said . . . end up in same spot.
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