One for the micros: A 6-max hand

[Guruman]

My wild guess is that you had AJ, and villain held a worse jack with a spade.

[Guruman]

read the hand, read the responses. Here are my thoughts:

-I really like the way that you played this hand, as I tend to just call down as well. I'll quote Davelin for truth[ QUOTE ]
Personally in the heat of the play I'd probably play it the exact same way but instead of raising the river I'd probably just call down. But I don't doubt your raise here is correct and finding spots like this is probably the difference between being a break-even and a winning play at these levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

-Because you had villain as capable of trickiness and this board looks like it missed most of your range completely I could see him taking this line with almost any pair.

This could very very easily be a float with a mid pp.

"I'll call my 88 pf and float the turn on a good board - yup, nice board still floating - sweet, another undercard. Out comes the move - well he called, which means he probably has a spade and he probably doesnt have a jack - flush missed, I'll bet my 88 for value and hope to get called by an ace - wtf was that? why does my butt hurt?"

This could also be a stunt with a paired board card:

"that entity 'tard steals alot. I'll call him with my 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and see where we go with this - sweet, paired my 7. Either he has a jack or he doesnt, but I'll wait to checkraise a safe turn since I know he's going to fire another bullet anyway - perfect card, I'll checkraise now - he just called which means he could just have a spade and be looking to catch - flush missed, I'll bet for value - wtf was that? why is my nose all bloody?"

[bbbushu]

i'm extremely curious to read entity's thoughts because i would ALWAYS play this identically but call instead of raise the river.

bbbushu

[Shillx]

Call turn, raise river is a modified WA/WB line. Because it is quaizi-wa/wb you would need a big but not monster hand. That basically narrows your range down to...

AA-QQ, AJ, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X (bluff)

This is a good place to bluff in general though maybe not against this specific player.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
Call turn, raise river is a modified WA/WB line. Because it is quaizi-wa/wb you would need a big but not monster hand. That basically narrows your range down to...

AA-QQ, AJ, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X (bluff)

This is a good place to bluff in general though maybe not against this specific player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You read hands good. Still avoiding LHE?

Rob

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
Call turn, raise river is a modified WA/WB line. Because it is quaizi-wa/wb you would need a big but not monster hand. That basically narrows your range down to...

AA-QQ, AJ, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]X (bluff)

This is a good place to bluff in general though maybe not against this specific player.

[/ QUOTE ]

My hero.

[Shillx]

I tried to play a few thousand hands a month while Party was still open. Only played a few sessions since.

If you would have asked me to put you on an exact hand I would have said A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Imo the hand plays the same way no matter what suits you hold though I would be more inclined to wait w/o a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I'm wondering if it factored into your decison at all?

Also it might be something to point out to newer players because the traditional wisdom is to call with outs but this is a spot where (if I had a gun to my head) I would 3-bet with outs.

[bbbushu]

shillx and entity,

i really feel like some sweet ass idea that i'm too slow to figure out is being dangled in front of me like a carrot, lol.

the idea of three-betting the turn here might make sense to me, if we also play on checking behind on the river...

bbbushu

[Entity]

Ok, my take:

My thoughts on the hand versus this specific opponent were that he would 4bet the turn with a wide enough range that I was obviously going to have to call a turn 4bet, and often, but not always, would have to call a river bet as well. While I would often 3bet here, I didn't have a wide enough read on what his exact range for this flop+turn line was for me to be absoltuely certain of a turn 3bet, when I clearly have to call a 4bet and may have to call a river bet as well (as miles pointed out).

In addition, I felt certain that if he were bluffing with a bare [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], he would continue his bluff on the river, and if that [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] were paired, he would call a river raise (this may even be true of the bare A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] but is not particularly likely).

The final trump that I felt pretty strongly about is that he very well might not 3bet the river with the same range of hands he'd 4bet the turn with; my hand felt strong enough to pay 2 on the turn and 2 on the river, but not 4 on the turn and 1 on the river. I felt that most of his 2pr hands would freeze up if raised on the river (you see this a lot) where they would almost definitely 4bet the turn; this way I can squeak a bit of extra value out of my hand without exposing myself to additional risk. Basically, I feel that by playing my hand this way I get the same 4 bets when I'm ahead, but I lose 5 bets when I'm behind, unless I decide to fold the river UI, which is probably the correct play but a difficult one in games where people tend to spew a bit more on the turn than they should.

It's a pretty close spot and the default, I think, is to 3bet the turn (it's the other line I considered). I decided to learn a bit more about how he was playing before pumping the turn up; the next time I had a chance to 3bet the turn vs him with a strong hand, I took it. :P

In this hand he had KJ and called my river raise.

Rob

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
shillx and entity,

i really feel like some sweet ass idea that i'm too slow to figure out is being dangled in front of me like a carrot, lol.

the idea of three-betting the turn here might make sense to me, if we also play on checking behind on the river...

bbbushu

[/ QUOTE ]

How is 3-betting and checking more efficient then calling the turn and calling the river? If you are going to put 3-bets in you are better off calling down. The only way it would be correct to 3-bet and check is if he would fold something of interest or if he would never bluff the river. Like if he has the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and would check/fold the river then it would be correct to 3-town it. Likewise if he would fold the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to a 3-bet then a reraise would be appropriate (not going to happen but a what if).

The problem is that only a rare kind of opponent will meet this critiera. Really the only person/thing that plays this way is a robot that is designed not to bluff in these spots after getting called on the turn. And if he folds to the 3-bet he was likely drawing dead or thin and it would have been better to not drive him out with a reraise. So if we are gassing the turn it is with the intention of betting the river for value. You might not bet every river (ie if the jack paired) but that is certainly the intention going into 5th street.

The "free showdown" raise is a pretty fishy play in general (heads up) and it is almost always wrong with a strong hand. Sometimes it is okay with a drawing hand that has a small chance to win UI b/c the opponent might fold some hands that he shouldn't but there is no way that he is ditching anything better then kings in this spot. For example say you have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on a board of J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]). On the flop your opponent donked into you and you called. Now he bets again on the turn. This might be a good spot for a showdown raise since he might fold a better hand and it could prevent you from getting bluffed on the river. Like if he has 87s he will call and then river will go check-check. If you just call he might bluff again and it will be tough to call on the end with A-high. Likewise he could fold a pair of nines/fives/something like 66. Not saying that it is always good but it should at least be considered.