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#11
10-26-2007, 11:14 PM
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Re: Is this basic?
First and foremost. This is an academic discussion as hero can win the pot without hitting a set.
But. I cant prove that it is and so far you havent proven that it isnt and I doubt that you can. So I and other readers of this thread can either trust you - a random poster in a poker forum (sorry), or Skalansky and Stox - two respected poker pros. Untill you or someone else presents convincing evidence that set value isnt enough for calling preflop I will keep telling myself that it is based on the fact that two players I respect says so. Not very satisfying but in this spot its the best I can do. 
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#13
10-26-2007, 11:44 PM
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Re: Is this basic?
you flop a set 12% of the time.
In this situation our EV = -0.75bb*(1-.12) + 3.5bb*0.12 + IO in a neutral EV situation our IOs need to be ~1.9bb. I don't have either book in front of me, but I find it hard to justify that many implied odds postflop against the hand ranges we are likely up against. Either way, of course some of the time we'll decide we can take our hand past the flop, and maybe even to SD, but even those times we now need to play our hand well enough to make our cumulative EV of going past the flop plus the IOs from flopping our set to be greater than 1.9bb to show a profit. Maybe somebody has written this out very eloquently, but intuitively I lean towards folding in this spot being the more profitable play (with 22 exactly speaking).
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#14
10-26-2007, 11:52 PM
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Re: Is this basic?
I 3b here sometimes. I know, I'm a filthy lag. Just seems like coldcalling makes our range kinda narrow/weak whereas 3b'ing leaves it wide and allows us to drive ppl out and stuff. I also fold and coldcall sometimes too, depending on mood and specific players.
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#15
10-27-2007, 12:09 AM
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Re: Is this basic?
[ QUOTE ]
First and foremost. This is an academic discussion as hero can win the pot without hitting a set. But. I cant prove that it is and so far you havent proven that it isnt and I doubt that you can. So I and other readers of this thread can either trust you - a random poster in a poker forum (sorry), or Skalansky and Stox - two respected poker pros. Untill you or someone else presents convincing evidence that set value isnt enough for calling preflop I will keep telling myself that it is based on the fact that two players I respect says so. Not very satisfying but in this spot its the best I can do. [/ QUOTE ] Just curious, In what book did Sklansky say this was a call? Or if it was from a 2+2 post, do you have a link?
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#16
10-27-2007, 01:02 AM
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Re: Is this basic?
[ QUOTE ]
.. I also fold and coldcall sometimes too, depending on mood and specific players. [/ QUOTE ] this is kind of why I posted this. last night I called towards the end of a losing session. tonight I folded at the beginning of a session where I won my first couple pots. seemed like a subtle form of tilt to do one or the other based on winning or losing at the time... if its close I guess it doesnt really matter too much
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#17
10-27-2007, 07:16 AM
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Re: Is this basic?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] First and foremost. This is an academic discussion as hero can win the pot without hitting a set. But. I cant prove that it is and so far you havent proven that it isnt and I doubt that you can. So I and other readers of this thread can either trust you - a random poster in a poker forum (sorry), or Skalansky and Stox - two respected poker pros. Untill you or someone else presents convincing evidence that set value isnt enough for calling preflop I will keep telling myself that it is based on the fact that two players I respect says so. Not very satisfying but in this spot its the best I can do. [/ QUOTE ] Just curious, In what book did Sklansky say this was a call? Or if it was from a 2+2 post, do you have a link? [/ QUOTE ] The book we all started out reading. SSSH page 81 in my edition. The preflop chart under SB play against a raise. "... except add all pp's (as long as 1 player besides the raiser besides the pot has also entered the pot)" Skalanasky doesnt say that its for set value, but given the fit/fold advice he gives for postflop I'd say its implied. @ Hobbs Its pretty clear that it all comes down to IO. Unless we somehow extract implied odds from hitting a set in a 2-bet pot preflop we can debate whether the IO are big enough from here to eternity. Lets just agree on disagreeing? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Oh and it still doesnt matter since hero can win the pot UI. This is like debating whether Al Gore would have made a good president...
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#18
10-27-2007, 11:17 AM
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Re: Is this basic?
[ QUOTE ]
The book we all started out reading. SSSH page 81 in my edition. The preflop chart under SB play against a raise. "... except add all pp's (as long as 1 player besides the raiser besides the pot has also entered the pot)" Skalanasky doesnt say that its for set value, but given the fit/fold advice he gives for postflop I'd say its implied. [/ QUOTE ] I thought you meant something more specific, but this is a good reference nonetheless.
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#19
10-27-2007, 02:35 PM
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Re: Is this basic?
44 is my borderline hand in this situation that depends heavily on my opponents playing styles..
55 is an insta call vs almost anyone.
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#20
10-27-2007, 03:40 PM
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Re: Is this basic?
to quote my self:
[ QUOTE ] no always call for 2 bets more with PP. If X raises Y calls and you are on the button its something else, because the pot is smaller. My guideline: If u raise, x reraise, y cap allways call If X raise Y call and you are in the sb call If x raise y call and you are co/button depends on player. if y/or bb is a calling station for example its a sure call. same goes for button raise sb 3 bet.(auto call ... people are folding way to much in the bb in this situation!) [/ QUOTE ]
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