Marginal Spot with Pair+Draw... Gamble???

[schaef]

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I would be concerned that there are 3 players left to act. The button had something strong enough to call a preflop raise of 4.5xbb and is now betting into 5 players. Yes he has position, but would he bet into 5 other players on a drawing board if he didn't have something worth protecting. He knows he is going to get called. Not to mention that he is not a aggressive player and he is betting out. If you call, you have to hope that the BTN does not reraise and just calls. And you're only getting a little over 2-1 on your $$$. I fold and pick a better spot to get involved in a big pot.

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Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I understand the previous poster's reasoning behind a call, but I think if this hand is played it need to be a push in order to clean up my outs and maximize my fold equity, not again the raiser obviously, but against the button. If he wakes up with a set, so be it, but just about every time this is AK/KQ/KJ taking a stab.

I don't have the pokerstove in front of me, but I think I calculated something like 35% equity against the raiser's range, so in the end it probably doesn't matter much what I do. Chances of another player waking up with a huge hand probably tilts it toward a fold.

[kitchma]

I usually fold this PF. I try not to play SC's let alone SC 1 gappers OOP.

As played, I think I fold. It is likely that your flush outs are no good. The original raiser checked and the two cold callers are the one's raising. They obviously woke up with something: flush draw, two pair, or set for at least one of them. On top of that, not only do you have a raise and a check-raise in front of you, but you also have two behind you (one of which was the original raiser).

[schaef]

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I usually fold this PF. I try not to play SC's let alone SC 1 gappers OOP.

As played, I think I fold. It is likely that your flush outs are no good. The original raiser checked and the two cold callers are the one's raising. They obviously woke up with something: flush draw, two pair, or set for at least one of them. On top of that, not only do you have a raise and a check-raise in front of you, but you also have two behind you (one of which was the original raiser).

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I think you're right... the combination of the original raiser waking up with a monster and overcalls from higher flush draws pushes this to a fold.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

omg calling here is ugly as hell, shove or fold. The same reason everyone is saying not to push (so many villains, no fold equity) makes calling even worse. Calling here just entices them to put their money in by shoving and then you wind up calling off your stack in the same spot you could've been by shoving and possibly folding out better hands.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

oh and lead the flop and 3bet ai and this hand plays out so differently

[schaef]

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omg calling here is ugly as hell, shove or fold. The same reason everyone is saying not to push (so many villains, no fold equity) makes calling even worse. Calling here just entices them to put their money in by shoving and then you wind up calling off your stack in the same spot you could've been by shoving and possibly folding out better hands.

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Exactly.

[schaef]

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oh and lead the flop and 3bet ai and this hand plays out so differently

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Definitely my line 100% of the time against 1-2 opponents, but against a large field sometimes I feel like seeing what develops.

[Jouster777]

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omg calling here is ugly as hell, shove or fold. The same reason everyone is saying not to push (so many villains, no fold equity) makes calling even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]no...it makes it better to call because we have to improve to win if we get one caller and if we improve we rate to have the best hand against everyone. If we make this call we get 2.5:1 odds. If everyone calls we get 4.5:1 odds

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Calling here just entices them to put their money in by shoving and then you wind up calling off your stack in the same spot you could've been by shoving and possibly folding out better hands.

[/ QUOTE ]With a draw it only helps to fold better hands if you fold EVERY better hand...its not gonna happen.

If you push and get SB to call you get 2:1 odds. If you call MP calls and CO pushes you get about 4:1 odds on the push. Someone else pushing here is preferred.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Jouster,
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omg calling here is ugly as hell, shove or fold. The same reason everyone is saying not to push (so many villains, no fold equity) makes calling even worse.


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no...it makes it better to call because we have to improve to win if we get one caller and if we improve we rate to have the best hand against everyone. If we make this call we get 2.5:1 odds. If everyone calls we get 4.5:1 odds

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who cares what better odds you are getting if you are still up against a set and a higher flush draw? If you think that when we improve we rate to have the best hand, why not shove and possibly increase our equity?

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Calling here just entices them to put their money in by shoving and then you wind up calling off your stack in the same spot you could've been by shoving and possibly folding out better hands.

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With a draw it only helps to fold better hands if you fold EVERY better hand...its not gonna happen.

If you push and get SB to call you get 2:1 odds. If you call MP calls and CO pushes you get about 4:1 odds on the push. Someone else pushing here is preferred.

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Ideally if you shove you would fold out any higher naked flush draws, no one is going anywhere with anything like two pair or a set. If I push and SB calls, he could have something as weak as AK or KQ since he seems like a donkey. If I call, MP calls, CO pushes (I don't even know where you're getting CO pushing from, or everyone calling wtf?????) we're going to be putting money in bad much more often.

Calling just gets you abused, and what happens when the turn blanks off and someone shoves then? You just threw away your flop call or you have to call off the rest of your stack bad on the turn.

Either fold, or take the line that has a chance of increasing your equity and guarantees that you see the river.

[prodonkey]

I agree 100% with BPS.. calling here is gross.. I think you overestimate these guys.. button could easily have air.. or A9 KT etc trying to take it down when everyone checked.. SB cr could easily be weak also trying to isolate a button bettor.. he could have as weak as KQ here IMO. Maybe he calls if u shove.. maybe he doesn't. Maybe he has a bigger flush draw.. then he obviously has no pair, if you make button fold then you turn your hand into a favorite.

Another reason not to call with this crap oop in raised pots.