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Victor · #11 07-31-2007, 02:41 PM

kurt, awesome analysis. go back to msnl pls.

KurtSF · #12 07-31-2007, 03:41 PM

What?

Make it $325 preflop. There is no downside. You will either win $120 absolutely no risk to you, or you kill any odds he may have to out draw you. And heck, he might come over the top. This is a +EV play always.

The thing is 44 and QQ play it the same against you here. I'm a fan of high-variance +EV plays, but in this situation you don't need to take on the variance to make it a very profitable situation.

Seriously, what do you want me to say? WTG turning your hand into a bluff?

DeathDonkey · #13 07-31-2007, 03:49 PM

Vic I think you played this great and I think you lost to quads but still played it great.

-DeathDonkey

KurtSF · #14 07-31-2007, 03:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Vic I think you played this great and I think you lost to quads but still played it great.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got no problems being "wrong", but how about a little help here. Why is this so great?

What calls the river crai that Hero beats? What better hands fold? I can't see it.

Little help.

DeathDonkey · #15 07-31-2007, 04:25 PM

A better question is what calls a river bet by Victor that won't value bet when checked to and didn't bet the flop or the turn. This isn't limit where the guy can just snap call the river with ace high.

-DeathDonkey

KurtSF · #16 07-31-2007, 04:43 PM

OK, given the preflop, flop, and turn action why re-raise all in? If a lot of hands will bet that can't call a bet, wouldn't a c/c line be better on the river? He has to call 800 into a 1200 pot... maybe you can get a call out of AA, KK, AQ. Not AK. Does 99, TT, JJ v-bet here? Is A2 or 56 in villain's range here? I don't think so. Maybe not even AA and KK, though perhaps KQ.

And why not keep betting preflop? Why not lead the flop?

Victor · #17 07-31-2007, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What?

Make it $325 preflop. There is no downside. You will either win $120 absolutely no risk to you, or you kill any odds he may have to out draw you. And heck, he might come over the top. This is a +EV play always.

The thing is 44 and QQ play it the same against you here. I'm a fan of high-variance +EV plays, but in this situation you don't need to take on the variance to make it a very profitable situation.

Seriously, what do you want me to say? WTG turning your hand into a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

i wanted you to say this. i wanted actual analysis.

my problem with 3betting pf is that he will fold most of his hands. and i think his range is quite wide here. 3betting pf gets in it in with kk, probably qq and maybe jj (ive folded jj pf tons of times so i figure this guy can get away from it)

however if the flop comes rags i figure hes gonna cbet quite often, esp with lower pairs, thinking i have ak.

he had qq so of course im completely wrong in this instance and im not sure why. i was kinda hoping someone would put themselves in villains shoes. when someone flat calls oop with 50bb stacks do you instantly put them on aa? for me i can have ak, aqs, and most pairs here. is that completely wrong? i pretty much never 4bet but its proly a huge leak but im not sure of a good range and how to react to a push without aa.

KurtSF · #18 07-31-2007, 05:36 PM

There are certainly benefits to your line which I'm not seeing fully. I tend to get stacked when I get tricky and just play ABC, playing AA fast, so I'm sure there's room for improvement. But since its a blind-battle I think its more likely than usual that you will not get credit for your 4-bet and he will come over the top with QQ, KK, or AK (with hindsight, not so much with QQ).

I even understand the flop line, letting him hang himself. Its the all-in on the end which bothers me the most. If he bets more hands than he calls with, check and call. But a 2x pot shove is only getting called by a boat IMHO

Victor · #19 07-31-2007, 05:40 PM

ya, i realized river allin was a pretty bad mistake.

Grunch · #20 07-31-2007, 07:08 PM

There are different schools of thought as far as 4betting preflop go. Some people 4bet preflop frequently, others 4bt preflop never. 4betting rarely, with hands like AA, is highly exploitable and often a bad idea. The point is that calling preflop isn't bad if that's your style and you're prepared to play big pots out of position.

Lead the turn. No need to get fancy here, and no need to let your opponent see a cheap showdown or cheap free cards.

It's important to understand why your river play was such a mistake. Consider the kinds of hands the opponent will call your shove with. The probably don't include any hands you beat.