Razz: FTP 24+2 HORSE Final Table, bad 5th street, help.

[Metnut]

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or get coolered by YOU with AA nut flush vs JJ ( flush ) and then blow out to a rivered gutshot. you played well bro, post tourney regrets are no fun! see you soon.

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yea that hand was wild. you played it good though, big turn check when i was pretty sure anyone would take a shot to bet that in position, saved yourself a big bet.

[Metnut]

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hey this is fear from that same table...i missed that hand but jim had been playing very tight since ft began and him calling an utg complete def is a warning bell...that would be the last person id want calling..5th is a good spot to get away from this hand and calling 6th pretty much obligates you to call 7th. 5th and 6th are the most crucial spots a razzer must learn to save bets imo. nice job!gg!

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yea 5th street is a big spot there... its annoying cause i think i played good all night, but my inexperience in razz hurt me there. i guess i was more hoping he paired or was bluffing than actually thinking he did. sucks when you play poker for 3 hours and choke during the biggest hand of the tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]Well you still cashed though didn't you? I think that it'd be a good thing that you got so far in the tournament while being, as you say, inexperienced. It shows that maybe down the road with a little work you can be winning these.

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yea.. i like the low-mid buyin horse tournies cause they are a good oppurtunity to get some experience in mid games with a really low downside.

[minnesotasam]

Call 5th fold 6th

[keebler61]

Player starts out with ~56k. -1k ante -5k 3rd, -5k 4th, -10k 5th. Totals to be left with ~35k if he folds 6th. In relation to the tournament, he loses one spot, and is going to be left with about 3.5BBs . Now, I am no expert on tournament razz, but I think it is sound money wise to fold 6th, correct? I think certainly calling 6th commits him to the river, right?

[SGspecial]

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yea 5th street is a big spot there... its annoying cause i think i played good all night, but my inexperience in razz hurt me there. i guess i was more hoping he paired or was bluffing than actually thinking he did. sucks when you play poker for 3 hours and choke during the biggest hand of the tourney.

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Lucky for you some experienced razz players troll these waters and are willing to help. The answer to your question is one that is a very good example of "it depends". There are a lot of different contexts going on that are going to affect your choice of the correct play, such as:

1) What's the villain's image, and what is his image of you?
2) How comfortable are you with your chip position in the the tourney. Are you looking to "win or bust", or just survive and move up?
3) How are you at stud? If you're much better at that, does it make sense to play conservatively during the razz rotation and wait till it changes over.

There are more to think about I'm sure, but you only get 30 seconds to choose which button to click! That's why you should have a gameplan as the cards are being dealt. You want to know in advance if you're going to make an early laydown if you're behind, if you're going to try to catch a maniac bluffing and double up, etc.

Now for the razz. In a vacuum, you have the value to call on 5th but not on 6th. In large part this is because if you call 5th and the cards break bad you can fold and cut your losses. If you insist on calling him down in a bad spot, then you might as well fold 5th to begin with. Your call on 6th commits you to call on the river as well, since you're not likely to get any new information about the villain's hand. So in essence you're calling 2 BBs there, not just one.

The key to this hand tho, is your play on 4th st. You're clearly ahead here, but given the 3rd st action and your opponent's image, you have to give him credit for starting with a 3-card 7 and so you're only slightly ahead.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

Sure your bet here is a value bet, but it also commits you to the hand much more strongly when you're in a spot that you'd rather keep your variance to a minimum (i.e. not go bust if you lose). So the correct play is to check here and see how 5th st. breaks. Without those 2 SBs going in the pot, you have no reason to chase on 5th st and it becomes an easy fold. True, some villains would bet 4th if you check (presuming that you're weak), but it sounds like this opponent is solid and would check behind rather than risk getting short stacked himself.

[Metnut]

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yea 5th street is a big spot there... its annoying cause i think i played good all night, but my inexperience in razz hurt me there. i guess i was more hoping he paired or was bluffing than actually thinking he did. sucks when you play poker for 3 hours and choke during the biggest hand of the tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lucky for you some experienced razz players troll these waters and are willing to help. The answer to your question is one that is a very good example of "it depends". There are a lot of different contexts going on that are going to affect your choice of the correct play, such as:

1) What's the villain's image, and what is his image of you?
2) How comfortable are you with your chip position in the the tourney. Are you looking to "win or bust", or just survive and move up?
3) How are you at stud? If you're much better at that, does it make sense to play conservatively during the razz rotation and wait till it changes over.

There are more to think about I'm sure, but you only get 30 seconds to choose which button to click! That's why you should have a gameplan as the cards are being dealt. You want to know in advance if you're going to make an early laydown if you're behind, if you're going to try to catch a maniac bluffing and double up, etc.

Now for the razz. In a vacuum, you have the value to call on 5th but not on 6th. In large part this is because if you call 5th and the cards break bad you can fold and cut your losses. If you insist on calling him down in a bad spot, then you might as well fold 5th to begin with. Your call on 6th commits you to call on the river as well, since you're not likely to get any new information about the villain's hand. So in essence you're calling 2 BBs there, not just one.

The key to this hand tho, is your play on 4th st. You're clearly ahead here, but given the 3rd st action and your opponent's image, you have to give him credit for starting with a 3-card 7 and so you're only slightly ahead.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&h5=

Sure your bet here is a value bet, but it also commits you to the hand much more strongly when you're in a spot that you'd rather keep your variance to a minimum (i.e. not go bust if you lose). So the correct play is to check here and see how 5th st. breaks. Without those 2 SBs going in the pot, you have no reason to chase on 5th st and it becomes an easy fold. True, some villains would bet 4th if you check (presuming that you're weak), but it sounds like this opponent is solid and would check behind rather than risk getting short stacked himself.

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Thanks for the post! The idea of checking on 4th street never crossed my mind. I try to play to win tournaments, so I think betting 4th street goes more along with my strategy, but your point about me being barely ahead is something i need to keep in mind. I need to not feel like its an injustice if i fall behind in a situation like this. I did have a read on villain as being looser than the other posters, but nothing i felt strongly about.

[Aardvarkvan]

Just a further note that if you make it to 6th, villain has either a made rough 7 or he's paired but has a draw to something at least that good. You are probably drawing dead in either case. (Even if he has paired, then catches a mere 9 on the river, you'll still need to improve to beat him.)