FH on Flop - But Villian has draw to possible Higher FH

[OrrLives]

[ QUOTE ]
Who the [censored] minraises here with K8? Most people hammer this with K8 because they are OOP and will be scared of at least 3 different cards on the turn (AKQ8 leave JT9, AKJ8 leaves QT9, etc.)


[/ QUOTE ]

If I was up against an unknown, I would probably try to get it allin since many would see AKXX as the nuts here. But since villain knows hero well, wouldn't villain be worried about hero having K8XX and maybe slow down after the 3bet on the flop?

I wouldn't be surprised if villain had either AKXX or K8XX. This is not an easy decision. Hero is either ahead 58/42 or dead.


Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 8s Kd Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
7s 6c 8d 8h 474 57.80 346 42.20 0 0.00 0.578
Kc Jc 9d Th 346 42.20 474 57.80 0 0.00 0.422

[Buzz]

Hi Wazz - It took me a couple of hours to write what I wrote. I didn't realize it would take me that long when I started or I would not have taken the time. Intially I only planned to write, "SB?" But then I decided to give my reasoning and that is what took longer than planned.

At any rate, by the time I finished and posted, several posters who know more about the game than me, including you, had already posted. I was pleased to see that you agreed with me about the logic of SB holding K8YZ.

As to what to do about it, I don't know. If Janelle folds here, I think she's going to get pushed around in the future. If she re-raises and then folds to a re-re-raise, I think she'll get pushed around even more in the future.

Given Janelle's description and the betting, I think SB probably has K8YZ. And therefore Janelle has a loser. But there is a possibility SB, friend or not, figures Janelle has 88YZ or AKYZ and is simply trying to bully her out of the pot.

It seems a tough, high pressure spot for her.

Buzz

[CrushinFelt]

SB should be pimp slapped for min-raising K8.

[wazz]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Wazz - It took me a couple of hours to write what I wrote. I didn't realize it would take me that long when I started or I would not have taken the time. Intially I only planned to write, "SB?" But then I decided to give my reasoning and that is what took longer than planned.

At any rate, by the time I finished and posted, several posters who know more about the game than me, including you, had already posted. I was pleased to see that you agreed with me about the logic of SB holding K8YZ.

As to what to do about it, I don't know. If Janelle folds here, I think she's going to get pushed around in the future. If she re-raises and then folds to a re-re-raise, I think she'll get pushed around even more in the future.

Given Janelle's description and the betting, I think SB probably has K8YZ. And therefore Janelle has a loser. But there is a possibility SB, friend or not, figures Janelle has 88YZ or AKYZ and is simply trying to bully her out of the pot.

It seems a tough, high pressure spot for her.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

The metagame is what makes this hand interesting. Your logic is mostly right, but 3betting and folding to a 4bet doesn't in fact say that you're easy to push around - the opposite, in fact, it says: 1), you can't minraise me for cheap cards, 2) that you're serious about the hand, 3) you are happy to release when villain is telling you you are beat, and finally 4) that you are going to have to 4bet here to show you're serious about the hand. In this particular spot I think you're drawing dead enough of the time to justify folding, and to keep in mind that next time you get into any somewhat similar spot you should be happy to call a 4bet or go all-in.

[sqwisssssss]

[ QUOTE ]
I should add a couple of things. I see plenty of people playing K8 this way; secondly, I'm not saying that you should fold to the minraise, but rather raise again there to see where you are and then fold to the all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, i must really be far off here.

i see the min raise as a feeler raise because sb doesnt have the 8 or an ace kicker.

we hold two 8's so the likelyhood of sb having king 8 isnt very good in the long run. besides, op is not deep at all.

idk, i must be extremely retarted. i dont see any real discussion here. i beat sb in the pot. look at the equity already invested. how can anyone consider a fold?

[Perestroika]

I think folding here sucks balls.

[OrrLives]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should add a couple of things. I see plenty of people playing K8 this way; secondly, I'm not saying that you should fold to the minraise, but rather raise again there to see where you are and then fold to the all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, i must really be far off here.

i see the min raise as a feeler raise because sb doesnt have the 8 or an ace kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

A min raise may be a feeler raise, but what is the 4bet shove?

I don't think people have a problem with the min raise as much as the 4 bet shove. I like hero 3betting on the flop because he needs to make a KXXX hand pay to draw out, but the 4 bet shove against a decent villain is really scary.

[sqwisssssss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should add a couple of things. I see plenty of people playing K8 this way; secondly, I'm not saying that you should fold to the minraise, but rather raise again there to see where you are and then fold to the all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, i must really be far off here.

i see the min raise as a feeler raise because sb doesnt have the 8 or an ace kicker.


[/ QUOTE ]

A min raise may be a feeler raise, but what is the 4bet shove?


[/ QUOTE ]

idk, educated gambling perhaps?

if you were sb and you had 3 over cards to the 8 on the board.......are you going to fold to the shorty op?

i shove here too if i'm sb. i dont see what the problem is.

we're not talkin about deep stacks here. its an effective 70bb's with equity in the pot already.

personally, i'll take op's hand all day. i know, espeacially with op's equity already in the pot, this is a winner in the long run........big time.

then again, maybe i'm retarded.......but thats just the way i see this situation. i'm looking at the long run.

[Flip-Flop]

I can only over-analyze for so long in hands like this one.
I can fold this multiway np and if the BB stayed in the hand I would`ve dumped it at some point.

But heads up I just don`t have it in me to fold this hand no mater wtf.
Common sense and probability tells me that vilian is most likely drawing to 9 outs max..if that.
If I`m that unlucky in this hand to run into K8 so be it.
I`ll gamble it up in this spot without breaking a sweat 100% of the time.
It`s fun.

[iggymcfly]

Meh, I think you run into K8 a ton here. I don't see AKxx ever min-raise/4-betting and I don't see Kxxx doing it either. I think this is K8 over 50% of the time and we should fold after the reraise.

With that said, I don't much like the initial check either. You're only one off the button and your hand isn't strong enough to slow play. Just bet the pot and hope to get C/Red by AK.