Interesting NL Situation in AC

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If the hand had not been killed by the dealer then it was live. Despite the compounding problems of dealer not quickly killing the hand, the player giving his buddy a hint not to fold, and the player's initial misreading of his hand, his cards were still live.

Let me paraphrase a few of my favorite rules from a real casino rulebook. ...

Every effort should be made to ensure the best hand wins the pot.

Any hand which is turned face up and is clearly the winning hand cannot be killed on a technicality or dealer error.

The floor reserves the right to make any ruling which they deem to be in the best interest in maintaining the fairness and integrity of the game.

Al

[GoodCallYouWin]

There is no confusion here, it was caused by an incompetent floor (surprise, surprise). There was is no reason the better hand should not win here, and the only thing that can be proven conclusively is that the guy with 89 has the better hand and it is clearly his. The floor should realize this immediately. If casinos properly trained their floor staff to handle problems they would make alot more money.

EDIT : Ok, so only a little more money. That's still more money!

[Central Limit]

I feel pretty confident that any floorperson would rule in favor of the 98 (nearly mucked hand).

That said, I think the pot should go to the player with the 85. I think that when a players tosses his cards face down to the dealer, that should constitute a fold. And, once you fold, your hand is dead. That's just how I think the rules should be.

Second, the way the hand went down, the player with the 98 was alerted to the fact that his hand was good by his friend in the game. Why should the rules be such that a player with friends has an advantage over a player with no friends?

I understand that no floorperson would rule the way that I would, but I think all onus should be on the individual player to protect his own hand.

[slickpoppa]

WHY THE HELL ARE PEOPLE SUCH PUSSIES ABOUT TURNING OVER THEIR CARDS! If you're embarassed about showing down your 89, don't call with it.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
WHY THE HELL ARE PEOPLE SUCH PUSSIES ABOUT TURNING OVER THEIR CARDS! If you're embarassed about showing down your 89, don't call with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

See the discussions where anybody invoking IWTSTH is two notches below John Evander Couey. Don't you know that letting people know what you played is like giving away plans to a briefcase nuke?

[RobTheDuck]

From Robert's Rules of Poker :

1. Your hand is declared dead if:
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).

This means that a player's cards do NOT have to touch the muck in order to be considered mucked. The grey area here is the definition of "forward motion." From my experiences and observations of floor rulings, 85 would get the pot b/c he was the only one left with cards at the end of the hand.

However, RRoP then states:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

This is incredibly vague in my opinion and makes the distinctions listed above it in the rules (see link above) less clear.

My $.02

[Al_Capone_Junior]

No floorperson I have ever met anywhere has received training beyond that of the paperwork. For myself they just said "now you are a floorperson." Every floor I know learned via the "trial by fire" method. I suppose it might be different in some casinos, but I've yet to hear about it.

Las Vegas was so desperate for cardroom staff when I first started that I was made a dual rate floor three weeks into my first dealing job. Ironically I was probably the best choice given the people available, mostly because I had played so much live poker. But I wasn't really ready.

Al

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
From Robert's Rules of Poker :

1. Your hand is declared dead if:
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).

This means that a player's cards do NOT have to touch the muck in order to be considered mucked. The grey area here is the definition of "forward motion." From my experiences and observations of floor rulings, 85 would get the pot b/c he was the only one left with cards at the end of the hand.

However, RRoP then states:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

This is incredibly vague in my opinion and makes the distinctions listed above it in the rules (see link above) less clear.

My $.02

[/ QUOTE ]

These are not vague. The first one talks about when there is action pending. If you throw your hand forward causing someone to act (give information) your hand is dead. The second one deals with cards at the showdown when there is no more action pending.

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]
From

1. Your hand is declared dead if:
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion <font color="red"> causing another player to act behind you</font> (even if not facing a bet).

This means that a player's cards do NOT have to touch the muck in order to be considered mucked. The grey area here is the definition of "forward motion." From my experiences and observations of floor rulings, 85 would get the pot b/c he was the only one left with cards at the end of the hand.



[/ QUOTE ]

You miss the part that the 85 did not 'act'?
That rule means:
PlayerA bets, PlayerB throws with forward motion, PlayerA tosses into muck (or maybe even shows a bluff), PlayerB grabs cards back and wants to call.
Too late.
If PlayerA just holds on to his hand, the rule does not kill PlayerB's hand.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no reason the better hand should not win here

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean other than the fact that it was folded?

-McGee