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#11
07-18-2007, 01:29 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 1. You got offered a free card on the turn with an unmade hand in a big pot with a great draw. Take it. [/ QUOTE ] edit: forgot to say FYP!! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] Benny, I don't think there is much "bluff" in this "semi-bluf". You can't consider a bet into 4 opponents on a co-ordinated board a bluff? You're probably not going to get raised too often, which is good, but you will almost never take this down. Plus, if a made flush, straight, set, 2pair or pair (actually, that is all made hands [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]) offer you a free card here, that is so so awsome I nearly wet myself. There may be some argument on the value side of things, there may be some argument on the cleaning outs side of things. However, I doubt you will get enough callers to exploit an equity edge, and if someone is calling the flop with A8/6/3 (obv without A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ldo), there is a fair chance they will peal the turn too. [/ QUOTE ] thank you. I looked at this hand and thought, "why didn't he take the free card? the field is huge." then I looked again and thought, "maybe his hand is still good here." then I looked again and thought, "my brain is telling me to take the free card, but my fingers are telling me to bet. why do you guys have to fight all the time?" you are spot on about there not being much bluff in the semi bluff. You will take this down 0% of the time here. 
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#12
07-18-2007, 01:35 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
[ QUOTE ]
you are spot on about there not being much bluff in the semi bluff. You will take this down 0% of the time here. [/ QUOTE ] Can you explain this please. I obviously made a mistake betting here from the replies I've received. I wasn't attempting to bluff. I'm new and guess I missed that a bet was not the right thing to do.
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#13
07-18-2007, 01:51 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] you are spot on about there not being much bluff in the semi bluff. You will take this down 0% of the time here. [/ QUOTE ] Can you explain this please. I obviously made a mistake betting here from the replies I've received. I wasn't attempting to bluff. I'm new and guess I missed that a bet was not the right thing to do. [/ QUOTE ] So what hands are you ahead of?
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#14
07-18-2007, 01:52 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
You are not taking it down with turn bet, obv. But I can see an argument in cleaning A/K outs and getting a free showdown. From pot equity point of view - it's even money play, you are over 20% to win (spiking A/K gives some extra), and there are 4 villains. So, the turn bet is not really a mistake, if you are doing it for the right reasons.
Having said that, I'd take free card [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#15
07-18-2007, 01:59 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
[ QUOTE ]
You are not taking it down with turn bet, obv. But I can see an argument in cleaning A/K outs and getting a free showdown. From pot equity point of view - it's even money play, you are over 20% to win (spiking A/K gives some extra), and there are 4 villains. So, the turn bet is not really a mistake, if you are doing it for the right reasons. Having said that, I'd take free card [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] What are the right reasons for betting in this situation?
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#16
07-18-2007, 02:05 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
having a made hand of some kind and not a draw
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#18
07-18-2007, 02:14 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only person who studies SSH anymore? Ed says to bet this turn. Very similiar example starting on page 285. [/ QUOTE ] Yep, Ed's logic is pretty much what I stipulated in my post. However is example is a little different - it's two-flush uncoordinated board. Adds value-betting to the mix. Here we have three-flush semi-coordinated. Tougher to justify.
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#19
07-18-2007, 02:20 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You are not taking it down with turn bet, obv. But I can see an argument in cleaning A/K outs and getting a free showdown. From pot equity point of view - it's even money play, you are over 20% to win (spiking A/K gives some extra), and there are 4 villains. So, the turn bet is not really a mistake, if you are doing it for the right reasons. Having said that, I'd take free card [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] What are the right reasons for betting in this situation? [/ QUOTE ] (1) Cleaning outs to Ace and King, thus improving your chances to win this big pot. (2) Getting a chance at a free showdown, your AK might actually win unimproved, whereas you'd have to fold to river bet. (3) Disguising your hand. If you hit the flush, someone else probably will and they wouldn't think you were on nut flush draw and would bet into you. That's what actually happened, didn't it? (4) Slim value bet - you might actually still have the best hand. (5) Metagame reasons - people will notice that you bet flush draw twice, so they will be more willing to pay you off later when you are holding a big hand.
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#20
07-18-2007, 02:22 AM
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Re: AK w flush draw.
[ QUOTE ]
Very similiar example starting on page 285 [/ QUOTE ] I'll certainly check this out when I get home. Very interested to see. Remy, you can't build an argument around betting for value based on your equity (edge). However you look at this, not a value bet. You are saying that everyone is always going to call your bet. Nah-ah. As I said, you can try saying that you will clean up outs, but if these guys called the flop with A8/6/3, whats to say they wont call the turn. If you are saying there is an example in SSH that advocates betting in a similar spot, without looking at it, I'm going to guess you are facing fewer opponents, with a pot at least this big or biger, and that the main argument for betting is even if your opponents fold rarely, the times they do is great because you may be folding out a hand that reverse dominates you.
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